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Andrew
Joined: 26 Oct 2004
Posts: 1015
Location: Australia
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 Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 10:32 |
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Hence:
| Andrew wrote: |
| ...these days its more a question of morality, ethics and personal choice... |
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Sandriche
Officer & Jamily Coach
Joined: 07 Oct 2005
Posts: 5564
Location: Austraria
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| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 10:33 |
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i don´t eat meat very often...i am way too lazy to cook it..i am more the pasta with vegetables -freak..
in kindergarden we receive food with meat maybe 2-3 times a week.( i have lunch with the kids )
i read this book " food revolution" and i was just shocked about the big amount of energy u need to produce all that meat stuff. i think i am eating with more awareness since that time.
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Andrew
Joined: 26 Oct 2004
Posts: 1015
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 12:19 |
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| Andrew wrote: |
| I might be completely wrong here, but it was my understanding that we started to eat more meat as we migrated out of Africa to more temperate climates... |
Ok, I must be wrong - I'm just watching a documentary on TV here and this group of Maasai warriors eat nothing but meat. I can't believe it - that's all they eat! Meat and nothing else - everyday...!  |
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deesh
Joined: 23 Feb 2002
Posts: 2717
Location: +001
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| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 16:38 |
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Maxud -
Are you mixing up the words 'convince' and 'conform' maybe?
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Cosmic Noe
Joined: 03 Nov 2007
Posts: 101
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 00:09 |
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I also care about health and enviroment, but I don't agree with the reason that Cosmic Mouse gave to stop eating meat. Again, we should worry about finding other energy resourses than petrol (do you have a hydrogen car?), and another way to produce things (how many factories with huge smoke pipes are un your country?)
Plus, is well known that countries in the called "first world" are the biggest agents of contamination (in their own countries and also in the countries of "third world")
I do realise that if we start with little actions, we can change something. But it's very unlikely to happen if the powerfull side of the word don't help at all.
Kisses to all, from the Third World
Noe
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ophone
Joined: 31 May 2005
Posts: 2191
Location: Lëtzebuerg
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 01:51 |
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I can't sleep because I had to think about what Meike wrote here.
Many things you wrote down here might be right, but some things you've got wrong.
First of all, there are raw meat dishes:
- Steak tartare (called Filet américain or Gehacktes here), raw minced beef (the dish Mr. Bean ordered at the restaurant ^^)
- Mett (very popular in Germany), raw minced pork
(I have to admit that those first 2 dishes are minced, but they're still raw.)
- Carpaccio, raw sliced beef (there's even duck carpaccio)
- Raw ham, like Ardennes Ham, Parma Ham, San Daniele...
- Bündner Fleisch, raw dried beef
(OK, I have to admit that these 2 last are smoked and/or dried, but mainly to be conservated longer.)
...
When it comes to beefsteaks, I like them fried or grilled, that's true, but they have to be raw inside, with just a hint of salt and pepper (except with an occasional red wine or garlic sauce). And Noe you're right, Argentinian beef is succulent! (But there again I have to admit that it produces a lot of CO2 to arrive here in Europe.)
If you consider fish as meat too, I shall remind you dishes like raw herrings or sashimi.
And then to the point of blood consumption:
When a pig is slaughtered, its blood is always kept to make dishes like black pudding (Träipen in Luxembourgish, Boudin noir in French, Blutwurst in German).
When it comes to the point that people don't slaughter their meat themselves, I have to disagree. OK, I never slaughtered an animal myself, I wouldn't know how to do it, but I know some people who keep their own rabbits and/or chicken, people who slaughter these animals from time to time. And then I knew some farmers who slaughtered their own pigs, cattle or horses to eat them in family or with friends.
Don't forget most people don't grow their vegetables or fruit themselves as they don't slaughter their meat.
I have to agree with Andy that most primates are omnivores, but you can't really compare the human being with other animals. (Yes, for me the human being is an animal too.)
There is no other mammal for instance that takes milk from other mammals in such a big style as we do. And furthermore to make such a big variation of dairy products. Not that we are the only mammals who consume milk and dairy products made from other mammals' secretions, take cats, rats and mice for instance (but those do it mainly due to human interaction).
We are omnivores, I like the smell of raw meat in a butchery as I like the smell of fresh fruit and vegetables in the greens departement of a supermarket.
Finally, I repeat myself, I like the taste of meat way too much that I'd never dare to skip it in my diet. Noe, when I read your post about asados I produce a huge amount of saliva, I feel like a dog!
[But I think I'll never convince you Meike to start to eat meat, your points to live as vegetarian seem mostly coherent and I have to congratulate you for the work you did to demonstrate and underline your way of living, even if I don't agree fully.]
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deesh
Joined: 23 Feb 2002
Posts: 2717
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 04:32 |
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Noe,
I do not have a car in my 'first world country'. I stopped eating red meat for the following reasons in the following order - 1. I wanted to try something new. I love red meat. I wanted to see if I had the discipline and courage to try to not eat it...I feel good that I have! 2.. my health (I have a heart condition that doesn't allow blood to pump through easily at all...when I stopped eating red meat, by chance - I got taken off of medicine and my heart tests have read normal...not saying it was because of the red meat...but still).
I can honestly say the cruelty towards cows, as well as the environment weren't leading factors in me not eating meat.
You say that everyone should do their part, right? Well, to some not eating meat is doing their part. Some people recycle, some people plant trees, some people change their light bulbs to flourescent, some install solar equipment in their houses, etc.
I think that everything is a step at a time. What Meike doesn't say here is that her family does more than not eat meat to help the environment.
And just because some of us live in these countries doesn't mean we are all contributing to global warming and not trying to change things in our government. There is so much pressure on the politicians from environmentalists about this issue.
Remember that a country's government and it's laws aren't always reflective of how the people of that country feel....even in a democracy.
Deesha
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CosmicMouse
Jamirotalk mum
Joined: 10 Feb 2002
Posts: 4821
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 15:40 |
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| ophone wrote: |
| I have to agree with Andy that most primates are omnivores, but you can't really compare the human being with other animals. (Yes, for me the human being is an animal too.) |
I would have never started to discuss this comparisson because I aboslutely agree that you cannot really compare. YOU were the one who pointed to the human teeth and tried to take this as a reason to eat meat. I just reacted to this false conclusion.
| ophone wrote: |
| There is no other mammal for instance that takes milk from other mammals in such a big style as we do. And furthermore to make such a big variation of dairy products. Not that we are the only mammals who consume milk and dairy products made from other mammals' secretions, take cats, rats and mice for instance (but those do it mainly due to human interaction). |
This is something that should make you think!!
| Quote: |
| We are omnivores, I like the smell of raw meat in a butchery as I like the smell of fresh fruit and vegetables in the greens departement of a supermarket. |
Of course most of us are, I don't doubt it ... the question is just if it is good for our health, for the environment, and last but not least for the suffering animals!
That the majority of people is doing something is not the guarantee for being healthy or ethical.
One important thing:
I am absolutely happy about being vegetarian. In my heart I have always been. I always felt bad when I was eating meat in the past. I was under pressure of other people and was not brave enough to say "no" to meat. I didn't want to offend my grandma for example when she offered me some meat to eat for example. Only when I made the final decision to become vegetarian I felt better. I am vegetarian = no meat for me from now on. I am so so happy that I don't have to eat meat anylonger. I don't miss the taste at all, and if I do, I would just buy some of that vegetarian meat alternatives who copy the taste very good - so good that I don't really like to eat them because some of them taste too similar to meat for me. I don't really want to be reminded, to be honest. But for those vegetarians who actually do miss the taste of meat this is a good option!
So, I do not miss it. On the contrary - it would be a torture for me if someone made me eat meat. It is not a sacrifice for me to quit meat. It is a gain.
Don't feel bad for me or think I am poor girl because I "cannot" eat this and that. (I have the feeling a lot of people think like that.)
And I am tired of justifying myself for something that is based on only worthily reasons I stand for:
compassion, empathy, (health) consciousness, holistic thinking, global concern
Mouse
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I'm walking on air and every cloud is Cloud 9. ~ |
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Cosmic Noe
Joined: 03 Nov 2007
Posts: 101
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 22:36 |
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| deesh wrote: |
And just because some of us live in these countries doesn't mean we are all contributing to global warming and not trying to change things in our government. There is so much pressure on the politicians from environmentalists about this issue.
Remember that a country's government and it's laws aren't always reflective of how the people of that country feel....even in a democracy.
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First of all, of course that if you have a health problem and you have to stop eating something it's fair and enough reason not to discuse it. Thank God my health still allows me to eat whatever I want. But I understand not all the people are like me.
Secondly, my point of view about the pressure on the politicians is that it doesn't seem to be working. They don't care too much, pressure from us doesn't seem to disturb their sleep. Actually, as I said, we're having trouble with our neighbour country Uruguay 'cos of a paper factory that Finland decided to install in that country violating the Río Uruguay treat. The laws are written but no-one respect them. So, very nice about the law and the pressure speach, but it isn't working. Then I wonder what should we do?
And yes, unfortunately, the way a government works isn't reflective of all the people in a country. But that won't be ever possible. In the meantime, I'll go to eat a juicy steak and back to think about my new post
Kisses to all,
Noe
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Cosmic Noe
Joined: 03 Nov 2007
Posts: 101
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 22:40 |
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And Mouse, did you just quit cow meat or other kind of animal meat as well? And you also quit all animal products? Forgive my ignorance, but I've known different kind of vegetarians and I'd like to know what kind are you.
Kisses to all
Noe
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deesh
Joined: 23 Feb 2002
Posts: 2717
Location: +001
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 22:44 |
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Noe -
First of all, Hope you enjoyed your steak.
Second of all, I never said I couldn't eat what I wanted. I said my health improved when I stop eating red meat, but for the record...I am not too good on dairy - runs in my family.
Third of all, what else can we do but be pro-active in our lives and continue to put pressure on the government. While it may not work sometimes, I feel more comfortable with myself knowing I'm doing something and not sitting on my ass. But that is just me 
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danni
Joined: 04 Nov 2006
Posts: 75
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ophone
Joined: 31 May 2005
Posts: 2191
Location: Lëtzebuerg
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 01:06 |
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Mmmm, rat milk instead of cow milk?
How many rats would you have to breed to produce enough milk for all non-vegan humanity? I'm sure rats would produce as much CO2 than cows.
And, with rat milk you can't make cheese, only milk from ruminants (animals with more than one stomach: cows, sheep, goats...) contain caseine, the stuff that makes milk coagulate.
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CosmicMouse
Jamirotalk mum
Joined: 10 Feb 2002
Posts: 4821
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 07:31 |
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| danni wrote: |
tho in the hardcopy of the paper she goes on about how we should have rats milk as an alternative to cows  |
Obviously this is not a serious suggestion! She is a vegan and it wouldn't make any difference for a vegan if you exploit cows, rats or dogs.
I googled her statement in the media and I am absolutley sure that she didn't mean that serious. She obviously wanted to point out the problems that livestock is causing on the environment, the deforstation, waste of resources ect.
And probably she wanted to make the people think about the point of drinking milk from another species. Instead we should think about alternatives for milk, based on plants.
EDIT:
Ok, why not ask the person herself what she meant? I mean, we all know what the press is making out of statements.
So, I just went to her website and there you have the statement - I was right:
| Quote: |
Heather’s “Drink Rats’ Milk” Claim is Wilful Misreporting, says Viva!
Yesterday saw the launch of Viva!’s environmental ‘HOT!’ campaign at Speakers’ Corner in Hyde Park, fronted by Heather Mills. The thrust of the campaign is that livestock for meat and dairy are destroying the Earth and are at the heart of all the world’s greatest environmental catastrophes. As part of the campaign Heather appears on billboards which carry stark warnings about the effects of eating meat and dairy.
During her introduction to the media, Heather claimed that people who drink cows’ milk might just as well drink rats’ milk or dogs’ milk as they are every bit as unnatural. It was widely reported in the Press today that Heather Mills had advocated drinking these milks as an alternative to cows’ milk in order to save the global environment. In fact the dairy alternatives she promoted were all plant-based: soya, almond, quinoa, hazelnut and so on.
Juliet Gellatley, founder & director of Viva! states: “Heather was entirely correct. Like all mammals we have evolved to drink the milk of our mums until weaned. We’re the only mammal to drink milk after weaning (except pets) – and certainly the only one to drink the milk of another species! It is as unnatural to drink the milk of a cow as it is the milk of a rat or a dog. The truth is, we started drinking cows’ milk only very recently in evolutionary terms and three quarters of the world’s population can’t even digest it once they’ve been weaned – they are ‘lactose intolerant’ Consuming meat, fish and dairy are at the heart of the world’s major environmental catastrophes which is even more of a tragedy when, as Heather said, there are so many plant alternatives available.”
“The reporters who filed this story about Heather advocating rats’ milk knew it was untrue because I amplified on what Heather had said,” continues Juliet Gellatley. “One actually admitted that he understood precisely what she meant but the ‘drink rats’ milk’ claim made a damned good story. What this reveals is an utter lack of any integrity in most of the Press – sadly not just the tabloids but the so-called quality papers, too.
“Every event I have attended with Heather has been grossly misreported by the Press and has involved spiteful and vicious personal attacks on her integrity and her sanity. The irony is that one of the most common accusations about Heather is that she is a fantasist and a liar – by people whose stock in trade is fantasy and lies.
“This campaign is of national importance because it seriously threatens our existence as a species, such is the rapid collapse of essential ecosystems – and livestock are at the heart of it. The UN FAO (United Nations Food & Agriculture Organisation) issued a massive report (Livestock’s Long Shadow) saying precisely this some 12 months ago. They weren’t distorted and trivialised they were simply ignored. So, either way, essential information on our children’s future is ignored for the sake of yet more spite.”
For information on Viva! HOT! Campaign visit www.viva.org.uk/hot |
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I'm walking on air and every cloud is Cloud 9. ~ |
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CosmicMouse
Jamirotalk mum
Joined: 10 Feb 2002
Posts: 4821
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 07:53 |
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| Cosmic Noe wrote: |
| And Mouse, did you just quit cow meat or other kind of animal meat as well? And you also quit all animal products? |
Noe, the answer is in my article - the link is in this thread somewhere, but I copy it here to make it easier to re-read.
It wouldn't make sense for me to just skip one species from my menue.
I don't want to eat anyone who has a face because I have a high respect for living creatures and I don't make any difference between pets, farm animals, minks, birds, insects, marine creatures ect. None of them should die for me for the sake of taste.
| Quote: |
For you, for the animals, for the world
I believe in non-violent resistance. To not eat animals is my personal non-violent protest.
When I made the decision to stop eating meat 10 years ago it was mainly because I felt compassion for animals. Somehow it appeared more and more odd to me to eat pieces of dead creatures, which had been going through a short life full of captivity, pain and fear of death. It was depressing to eat their bodies - it was impossible for me to deny all these nuisances while eating a meal which contained meat. Today I feel better about myself and better about animals, knowing I am no longer contributing to their pain. I could never imagine going back – it's a question of awareness. The more I learn about the circumstances around being a vegetarian and the consequences, I feel proud and confirmed over and over that I am on the right track.
Being vegetarian is not just a personal thing about your preferences and your attitude towards animals; a vegetarian diet is THE choice if you want to live a healthier life and to save the planet too.
Unfortunately most people don't know about these facts - there are still a lot of false pretences in our heads, for example that a meat-free diet would cause deficiency signs or that you need meat to become tall, strong and healthy - which is not true. Fact is that a whole food-vegetarian diet guarantees an optimal coverage of all nutrients. Meat is nutritionally speaking not needed.
Moreover the consumption of meat is a risk factor for a range of diseases like diabetes, obesity, osteoporosis, cardio-vascular diseases, cancer, arthritis, inflammations, asthma, allergies and more. In addition meat can contain harmful contaminates, dioxins, germs, antibiotics and hormones. Vegetarians have better blood pressure and cholesterol values, they have less weight problems, and their immune defense works better. Within vegetarians you will find less arthritis-patients and very rarely diabetics.
Not only does factory farming lead to the torture of animals and unhealthy effects on your own, it is also causing havoc on environment as well as supports global suffering. In an effort to avoid regulation, keeping the costs down and maximize its profits, the agriculture business has poisoned our water and air, helped push global warming further along, destroyed wildlife, fragile habitats and ecosystems and monopolized valuable land and water supplies. Livestock farming has a high impact on the climate warming – an even more significant impact than transportation has. Less meat in our diet would help to reduce the worldwide CO 2 emissions, concentration of methane in the atmosphere, and would therefore lower the greenhouse effect.
You see, there are a lot of reasons to quit meat for good. My personal prime reason is the respectfulness for life and living beings and my holistic thinking. Exploitation of fellow creatures and environment cannot be the path worth striving for. The desire not to cause undue harm to animals is a natural one and most people have compassion for suffering animals to some extent at some point in their lives. With my decision to be a vegetarian, I have just taken this feeling to its logical conclusion.
One thing that is puzzling me a lot is how differently most people value the various types of animals. Whereas lots of people would never ever consider eating dogs, cats and horses, they enjoy having pigs, cows and rabbits for dinner. Pets are treated as friends, farm animals like slaves. The majority think that killing animals for fur is cruel but at the same time they buy shoes, clothes, furniture made of leather. This appears to me a contradictory view and has a bigoted touch. For me every animal has the right to live a cruel-free life. Every species is worth to be saved from pain, torture and death. We shouldn't presume the right to end the life of any creature at least not for base motives like doubtable enjoyment and taste.
By living a vegetarian lifestyle within my family, I set an example especially for my two children. There is no better way to teach them respect for life, egality and non-violence. Of course they are kids and they squabble here and there, but it is just remarkable how caring they can be for living beings, no matter how tiny they are. In our house no spider or midge will be squashed on purpose - it became a little sport to catch and carry them out. Not eating animals is just the most normal thing to do for them but they also sense that vegetarians have still an outsider role in the society. How do you explain a little four-years-old who is asking you with big eyes: "Mum, grandpa is eating meat of animals - how can he do that?"
To drop meat and animal products from your menu isn't a sacrifice. The vegan diet offers an abundance of diversified dishes which are delicious, healthy and above all free of suffering.
I am aware that being vegetarian is not the most consequent strategy to boycott the cruelty of livestock farming. In fact, by consuming diary products and eggs as well as other animal products I still support the suffering of farm animals and even their killing. That's why I keep informing myself about possibilities to replace animal products with cruelty-free products, and the more I get to know about the various alternatives I learn that it is way easier to live a vegan life than I thought. I am not consequent in all aspects yet, but I try to reorganize as much as possible and am happy about each new product I find that is non-violent – step by step I make change.
Meike Melansek
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We all love animals. Why do we call some "pets" and others "dinner"?
~k.d. lang
Nothing will benefit human health and increase chances for survival of life on Earth as much as the evolution to a vegetarian diet.
~Albert Einstein |
Mouse
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I'm walking on air and every cloud is Cloud 9. ~ |
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