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ophone
Joined: 31 May 2005
Posts: 2191
Location: Lëtzebuerg
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 Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 07:43 |
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Abortion
Well, I don't want to mistreat Nathalie's topic anymore, so I open this one.
| deesh wrote: |
| Where you live doesn't represent where I live. There is so just so much stereotype in your answers, that I should stop here. It is indeed too emotional. |
First of all, as I said, abortion is legal in my country until the 12th week after the conception. (I don't know the US legislation on that matter, Deesh you could enlighten me.)
Although I'm not keen on penalizing abortion again, because some women will always abort and I don't want them to get killed in an illegal unhygienic abortion scene, I still consider abortion as murder (one of the few points I agree with the Catholic church).
As I said, there might be cases where, even in my view, abortion is justified:
- When the woman has been raped.
- When the woman's life is in danger due to her pregnancy.
- When the child is seriously ill and can't have a decent life.
I agree, in one way my "If you don't want kids at all, don't fuck" was a bit extreme. First of all because of our needs to have sex.
But those needs are the natural regulators for... yes... procreation.
Of course there are contraceptives, but there is always a risk for women to get pregnant even when using contraceptives. i.e.: There could be a hole in the condom or the pill couldn't work properly...
So, my sentence is right again.
Finally I want to answer to your point that my answers are stereotypical in your eyes.
As my answers represent my opinion and my opinion is a part of me, I took your "There is so just so much stereotype in your answers" very personnally.
Well my answers might be stereotypically pro-life, but yours are stereotypically pro-choice.
I don't know how education is in the US, but here you learn to weigh the pros and cons of certain topics and also to accept (but not to approve) someone else's opinion.
I accept that you are 100% pro-choice, but the way you express your point of view is quite intolerant, by saying that seeing pro-choice as pro-death or abortion as murder as "dumb, dumb, dumb" and calling my answers stereotypical.
Abortion is nothing else than the action of killing a foetus, so abortion IS murder, no more no less. So, if you are pro-choice you are pro-murder of foetusses (sorry, I can't remember the propper plural of this word). This is not stereotypical, not dumb but logical.
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NiMira
Joined: 18 Aug 2008
Posts: 28
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| Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 08:09 |
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Well... Abortion is legal in my country also untill the 12th week, or 18th for medical reasons (if there is something really wrong with the baby - the 18th week of pregnancy is when you get your amniocentesis results).
First I have a couple of questions for you:
| Quote: |
| When the child is seriously ill and can't have a decent life. |
What does it mean? Who is to decide what is seroiusly ill? For someone even having Down syndrome means 'undecent' living.
| Quote: |
I agree, in one way my "If you don't want kids at all, don't fuck" was a bit extreme. First of all because of our needs to have sex.
But those needs are the natural regulators for... yes... procreation. |
Yes sex is there for procreation, but in human race (and some animal species) sex is there for pleasure. I guess education is the solution for unwanted pregnancies. I know you agree here with me.
When I was younger I would have considered abortion if pregnancy 'happened' the time I didn't want. ... Now when I have a child of my own, and when I'm older - I just couldn't even consider abortion. But I would never, as you wouldn't too, criminalize it. Women and men must have a choice.
edited some spelling errors. the ones i noticed.
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Jamiroquanna
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Joined: 19 Jan 2006
Posts: 1398
Location: Hertfordshire, UK
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| Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 08:47 |
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Re: Abortion
| ophone wrote: |
I still consider abortion as murder (one of the few points I agree with the Catholic church).
As I said, there might be cases where, even in my view, abortion is justified:
- When the woman has been raped.
- When the woman's life is in danger due to her pregnancy.
- When the child is seriously ill and can't have a decent life.
Abortion is nothing else than the action of killing a foetus, so abortion IS murder, no more no less. |
I was following this discussion yesterday, and chose not to get involved for my own reasons. However, in my opinion Andre, you are totally contradicting yourself with siding with what you believe the Catholic Church teaches and in what you situation you consider a termination to be justifiable.
You say that you believe abortion to be murder, as the Catholic Church states, but you make allowances for an abortion to happen when the child is seriously ill and cannot have a decent life. The Catholic Church also states that it is murder to abort a child even if it is seriously ill. I have had conversations with many Catholic women (being a Catholic myself), who have given birth to children with all types of ilnesses or difficulties. Because of their strong religious beliefs, their thoughts were "why kill life when God intended it to be that way" - a teaching by the Catholic Church.
Am not a mother myself and I do not know how I would feel if faced with any of the above situations, but yes, it is totally unfair when a child goes through so much pain and it certainly seems unjustifiable to see the parents go through so much heartache. My intention is not to start a huge discussion around religion, but I am questioning some of your comments.
As you put it - "abortion IS murder, no more no less" - therefore please explain to me your contradictory beliefs.
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ophone
Joined: 31 May 2005
Posts: 2191
Location: Lëtzebuerg
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| Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 10:41 |
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How to explain you this?
I don't see anything really contradictory. Even if I am for voluntary abortion in certain circumstances, I still see abortion as murder, because it's a fact that abortion is murder.
Practically I just share the Catholic church's opinion on that particular point, do you understand?
Most of the rest I disagree with the church considering this topic. For example I don't see why a woman should keep and raise a kid she got through rape. I don't believe in the divine will.
What I want to add is that I think that it's quite strange the pro-abortion people in the US call themselves pro-choice.
Pro-choice is an enormous euphemism in my eyes, why don't they just call themselves pro-abortionalists or something like that. Because the choice you have is already before the sexual intercourse, to have sex or not.
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deesh
Joined: 23 Feb 2002
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| Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 11:33 |
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Dear Ophone,
Thank you for wanting to know more and I respect your stance against abortion. My 2 best friends are against abortion, and it's fine by me because they aren't judgemental and they actually know me. I will not call you wrong, as you have your own opinion and that is totally okay by me. However...
There is a lot going on in my life right now, so no time to really discuss this on here. Furthermore, I don't have a desire to discuss things with someone who calls me out of my name, or calls me things based on not knowing me (judgemental, disrespectful, murderer). Note that I never called you anything or judged you. I was talking about your answer in response to judging me.
I do believe that Anna says a lot of what I wanted to say.
I'll keep it simple and say that everyone comes from different situations. You can't expect all women to live by the same rules and laws when they don't live in the same country with the same rules and laws. If you want to make abortion illegal, then you need to step up the sexual health and sexual education in all countries - of everyone, including teens.
My part of the country doesn't represent your part and your part of the country doesn't represent mine, so how you can tell me what to do with my body when you have noooo idea how I live, matter of fact, don't even know me is beyond me.
Not all abortions are dirty.
There's a lot you seem to not understand about living in the USA, and it's cool - you don't need to as far as our stance on abortion. If you want to know - google it. Talking about it to someone that doesn't live here is very exhausting and I have to work my 2 jobs and go to school - so I don't have much energy to spare. I am not a person who says I am for abortion. I am for choice, which has to be determined by each situation. Goodness, I'm talking too much.
If you want to know about my history with abortion, PM me....I'll send you a link that'll help you explain me really, really fast. This fight isn't something that I just randomly have on message boards with strangers...this topic is something I live (you don't even understand...). I'm sure you are a nice person in real life and you seemed to be liked on here by others - but I really wish to not communicate with you on anything non-Jamiroquai related. Let's just leave it at that. No hard feelings! Have a good day!
Love, the 'murdererer' - Deesha
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Javis
Joined: 31 Oct 2006
Posts: 1530
Location: Córdoba, Argentina
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| Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 13:27 |
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"one of the few points I agree with the Catholic church"
men... who cares!
that's not a valid point, when you start talking about religion you are automatically out of sense. |
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freaky
Joined: 02 Nov 2005
Posts: 476
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| Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 14:55 |
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Just read your 3 points, why a woman should be able to abort.
And that abortion is murder.
Yes, abortion is murder, you kill the life of an inocent kid.
But, if a kid is not wanted.
And for what reason, this kid is not adopted.
This unwanted kid can kill too, the life of the mother. And all consequenses following in her life.
The unwantedc kid can become so screwed up....think you can fill the dots?
Maybe it is the easiest and sometimes the most cruel way, but sometimes it makes sence.
And, most of the women having an abortion will think of this kid their whole life. The what iff.....
For women who had more abortions than fingers, i think they should get fixed! (yes, just like a cat)
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jamirokaki
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Joined: 29 Jan 2003
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Location: basque country
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| Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 15:01 |
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alright! this discussion will always be forever.
i always see so many contradictions in this issue, lots more in the "pro-life" side than in "pro-choice" one, but lots in both anyway.
if the reasons are moral, like is the case you always have the problem of who says what is moral and what no, and where to put the limit.
in most cases religion puts the rules, wich is the worst cause they are most times totally irrational and always "sacred", so no discussion. other times, as said, are moral not linked with a particular religious "party" but always linked with a profound antropocentrism, wich in this case is so linked with "divinity" and religion itself cause gives the humans an apart "soul" differing from all the other animals.
first of all. appart of what we all have heard about humans being the only ones having sex for pleasure (maybe together with dolphins etc) is a TOTAL ABSURDITY.
the sexual reproduction is shared by most of the animals and all mammals and uses exactly the same mechanism in all. all of us have the same attraction for sex before knowing rationally why, before knowing what is for, fun or reproduction.
the only difference, specie by specie (and individual for individual) is the different hormones and proteins involved in both male or female bodies (or even more sexes when talking about some animals), due to them cicles are different and in some make the reproduction phases more strict, and more opened in others, in some even when action of sex is "ready" reproduction is not, and of course can be different in males or females and more or less sophisticated (not only the action itslef, but the communication etc). also it's interesting to understand that sex and reproduction is not even evolutionally go in the same direction. i mean, appart that reproduction happened long before sex appeared, this mechanism of sexual reproduction have evolutioned together with lots of other mechanisms differently in each animals (but linked in the different linneages) so it can have more to do with other aspect of the animal behavior like feeding, communicating, disstressing, group jerarchization etc...
(please, never forget humans are animals, not better or worse than any other, not more or less evolutioned than any other, just one of million of millions possibilities happened; the same for vegetarian/vegan/carnivoral moral discussion reasons)
"sex is for there for procreation" "sex is natural regulator for procreation" is totally false if you understand what evolution of life is.
"don't want child, don't fuck" is one of the most machist (male sexism) sentences i've hear in long time. as much as a male fucks he will never have a baby inside, nor have any hormonal/behavioral/body change in him. so i see as a "ball passing" of all the "problem" to the woman.
appart of that, and about what i mentioned above about sex/reproduction diferentiation, the sentence sounds to me as absurd as "don't want to be fat? don't eat!" (another example of what i want to explain, is not the same to have alimentation and to eat, altough we use eating for alimentation).
the "seriously ill" and "decent life" got this moral/religious limit wich appears always. what is decent life? a totally normal person have this decent life guaranted? and an ill person haves a non decent life guaranted? a mother of a normal non wanted baby haves decent life? a mother of a non normal wanted baby dont?
if you use the "decent life" argument to this issue you automatically need to aprove the choice of the mother. the mother is who gives the life (together with the previous male's aportation), the mother is who creates this life, who "lights the fire" of life (not any God, not any other who says what is wrong or rigth), is her who haves this baby inside, who will have so many changes for the rest of her life, who haves the right to say what she wants for her life, for her "decent life", who haves the right of saying if her baby will could have a "decent life", not any other.
"abortion is murder, no more no less"...nothing more to add than this link, from the meaning of life:
http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=47P59ha9k9s
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deesh
Joined: 23 Feb 2002
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| Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 15:15 |
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oh and, those who believe that abortion is murder should just leave me be.
no hard feelings of course!
deesh
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Ivy
Joined: 25 Jan 2005
Posts: 336
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| Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 15:48 |
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ugh I want to delete but its telling me to leave a message ..so here!
Last edited by Ivy on Wed Sep 03, 2008 18:01; edited 1 time in total |
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freaky
Joined: 02 Nov 2005
Posts: 476
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| Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 17:25 |
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| deesh wrote: |
oh and, those who believe that abortion is murder should just leave me be.
no hard feelings of course!
deesh |
Please don't be like that Deesha!
Yes, i say it is murder, but in abortion it can save lives too.
(lives...multiple)
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deesh
Joined: 23 Feb 2002
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| Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 17:55 |
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I meant leave me be with this topic.
Except of course those who feel the need to judge!
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freaky
Joined: 02 Nov 2005
Posts: 476
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| Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 17:59 |
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Thanks for the explenaion
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Jamiroquanna
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Joined: 19 Jan 2006
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Location: Hertfordshire, UK
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| Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 18:11 |
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| ophone wrote: |
I don't see anything really contradictory. Even if I am for voluntary abortion in certain circumstances, I still see abortion as murder, because it's a fact that abortion is murder.
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Then you are either for or against "murder" (as you call it) in this sense. You can't be both. I understand where you are coming from in this respect, but please don't use Catholicism as an example, because the Catholic church will NEVER justify an abortion. You can't be in two places at once with this one.
| ophone wrote: |
Well, when you say that being pro-life and saying pro-choice means anti-life is dumb, dumb, dumb, you are as disrespectful and judgemental as I am. (And this just because I used the f-word in its appropriate meaning.) |
I read this thread over and over again and in my opinion, Deesha wasn't being disrespectful towards you - she was talking about something which she finds passionate and of people asking her questions which she thought were a bit stupid (that's what the thread was about). Things that are very very close to her heart. Nothing more. Your post to me sounded very dry cut. Perhaps you need to be a little more sensitive towards these types of topics; a little bit of milk goes a long way 
Have a read of Deesha's work; it's astounding!
www.myspace.com/coveryourlover - 
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ophone
Joined: 31 May 2005
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Location: Lëtzebuerg
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| Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 06:43 |
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| Jamiroquanna wrote: |
| Have a read of Deesha's work; it's astounding! |
Will do!
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