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Little H - KSA
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
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Location: Too far west of where heaven lies
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 Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 13:48 |
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Intimacy was the word that sprung to mind, and thank you Pepela you mentioned it.
Can someone define intimacy . . . ??? |
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FunkyDonkey
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| Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 13:56 |
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I'm really sorry Pepela, that's hard to hear, I know it's still this way in a lot of countries. It was the same here for the generation before ours, I'm sure this "tradition" will pass away but it will need time...
| Little H - KSA wrote: |
| Intimacy was the word that sprung to mind, and thank you Pepela you mentioned it. |
Right  .
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deesh
Joined: 23 Feb 2002
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| Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 14:38 |
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| jamirokaki wrote: |
it is again a thing of concept.
if you see the sex as a pure gift of giving your body, as the last barrier, as a sacrum secret....you won't be free.
if you see it like a enjoying of time between persons, a sharing of a pleasure, never a kind of sacrifice (like the sentence "...which is totally understandable considering the gift they are giving to a man"), you can't have free sex if you feel you are losing something when you are having it.
you can see as a mutual gift, or can see like a real gift, but when you do a gift to someone, you don't feel you are losing nothing, you are winning the experience of seeing the other happy with it, and you are happy for giving it.
but you can also see as something even more plain than a gift, wich use to happen in concrete situations.
you can have freedom in the sex if you enjoy like any other thing in the life. you can enjoy seeing a film with a friend, cooking, eating, going to a concert, talking, playing... you are sharing a nice experience in all of them, you are putting feelings in all them, in my view you can have exactly the same treatment for the sex. if you are confortable with someone then it can be easy to enjoy anything you both enjoy without needing anything more.
the only way, in my view of being free with the sex is just normalize it.
it can be as personal or as unpersonal as you want, same as with other pleasures i mention.
that personal view of the sex (with "personal" world having negative connotation of tabú) is only cultural, not natural.
we sholud enjoy the pleasures in life as far as with them you don't hurt any other, that's my view, and this moral goes upon any religion or culture.
it is hard for me to explain all this because of the language and because it would need longer texts surely, but i hope you get what i try to say. |
There is so much to respond to...ahhhh 
Okay, the first thing that stood out is this sentence by you Inaki:
"that personal view of the sex (with "personal" world having negative connotation of tabú) is only cultural, not natural."
I highly, highly, highly disagree. Are you speaking of the act of sex? If so, read on. If not, disregard what I'm about to say.
One thing that can come out of having sex is having a child. My body naturally produces estrogen and I have a cycle every single month - naturally. It's a part of me being a woman. So therefore, the personal view I have about sex is indeed natural - not cultural. I was raised in 2 cultures, one being hip-hop. Now if I adopted the personal view of sex from the hip-hop culture, then I'd be a complete mess. The other culture I was raised in was the black woman culture to create children to further the black movement - again, not a personal view that I see sex through. The view I have of it is indeed personal and it ties back to the possibility that sex can lead to a child, which is indeed a natural function of a woman (well...me).
As far as the gift - yes, indeed I look at it that way. This body belongs to me. It does not belong to everyone and anyone. If the world around me crumbles and I lose everything I've ever earned, I still have this - my body. It's the most precious gift to me.
As far as sharing between 2 people - hell, we can go shoot drugs and that is sharing between 2 people also. I can think of other ways to share with people than having sex. Ways that are more pleasurable to me, and tying in to what Pepela said - intimacy, which actually sometimes is more personal than sex. But going back to what you said about going to a movie, cooking, etc....those are things that I wasn't born with, therefore they aren't as personal to me as sex or the involvement of exchanging of natural bodily fluids. I earn the money to go to the movies...yes - but I wasn't born with it. I was born with a vagina, breasts and reproductive organs...all which (in my case anyway) are involved during sex.
Losing is a negative word - if I used it, I shouldn't have, but...when you say, "you can't have free sex if you feel you are losing something when you are having it." I don't look at it as losing, I look it as just giving. Not so much losing, unless you choose to take the word literally.
I understand what you are trying to say, but I can't normalize sex as much as I'd LOVE to.
Normalizing it was the reason many things in my life happened the way they did, and while I won't call them negative, they sure weren't positive. Normalizing sex has caused me to have trouble bearing children.
I won't go into detail, but everyones world is different, so to some being more free with sex isn't really an option.
Just my opinion and I probably sound manic, jumbled or hypocritical in some ways and that's because I'm constantly learning about self and others.
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Last edited by deesh on Mon Feb 26, 2007 14:47; edited 1 time in total |
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deesh
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| Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 14:45 |
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| Little H - KSA wrote: |
Intimacy was the word that sprung to mind, and thank you Pepela you mentioned it.
Can someone define intimacy . . . ??? |
I don't know H. I honestly think everyone's definition is different and I know I cater it to my personal experiences.
Intimacy is something to me that can be used to define people, places, things, experiences, and feelings.
But in the sexual realm, it means to me sharing a spoken or unspoken connection that can be, but not limited to the physical, spiritual, emotional, and mental state. Sometimes all and sometimes just one.
That's a damn good question. This is just my interpretation of it.
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deesh
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| Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 14:53 |
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| Pepela wrote: |
But meaning marriage is also blurred here:
mothers are very strict here in Georgia, girls are taken to an gynaecologist every month for mothers to be sure that they're still virgins! And if noth it'll be considered as a shame for all family. Why - nobody knows, traditions as they say.
For me I can't imagine what will my mother do with me if she knows that I forgot about these traditions a while ago:)))))))
As she used to say she'll give me a kick in my ass and say to leave home:)))))
So I assure you it's soooo hard to live in Georgia with these tradition's pressure!( |
I do agree the definition of marriage is very blurred in this topic and I think that has a lot to do with the different cultures, traditions, laws and customs of each country.
Wow...about the mothers taking their daughters to the gynecologist. I can see going every year, maybe every 6 months because that is health conscious, but not to see if they are still a virgin - just to make sure their health as far as their organs in the pelvic region are in tact and that they don't have cysts or fibroids (more common in black women) on their organs.
The pressure is sad really, but I don't blame the older generations for passing down the traditions, just being a bit judgemental and non-trusting of their daughters. Then again, I'm not a mom - so I can't speak on that.
I just hope the education about not only sexual diseases, but also the basic bodily make up of the women is just as strong and frequent as these monthly visits...
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deesh
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| Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 14:56 |
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I just also want to say that I think the body is a beautiful thing, very beautiful. I have no issue or disagreement with that, but this discussion is going beyond that to discuss sex.
I'm not a prude at all (those of you that know me..know this) 
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jamirokaki
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| Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 15:57 |
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| deesh wrote: |
One thing that can come out of having sex is having a child. My body naturally produces estrogen and I have a cycle every single month - naturally. It's a part of me being a woman. So therefore, the personal view I have about sex is indeed natural - not cultural. |
of course, that's natural. i wasn't talking that way. if i would i would also say that myslef creates millions of male gamets everyday, and the natural way of most of the mamal males (incluidng all the apes)
is to try to fecund as much as females he can, naturally they also force the female in lot of the cases.
but i'm not defending that when saying it's natural.
if we will reduce the sex only to the fact that is for having children, for reproduction, then, theres nothong more to discuss. a woman is the female and a man is the male, our reproductive way is the named as "k strategy", this means we have few desdendent and we care of them...
i'm talking about us, humans as other animals in this issue. we are one of the very few animals wich use the sex appart from the reproduction, we also have a thing called moral, an din this case, we are the only ones having it in this planet.
what i was trying to say with the "personal" word is that it is used like if the act of sex is inmoral because somebody uses it for any other reason that reproduction. that's what most religions imposes to us, and what most cultures also do, maybe in a more subliminal way.
for me as far as there is respect between the people having sex (and with respect i mean approval) theres nothing morally wrong.
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deesh
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| Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 16:19 |
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Word. I understand what you mean.
I didn't mean to reduce the discussion to simply reproductive, but when you incorporated natural vs. cultural, personal vs. free, automatically my mind went there. I just wanted to make the point that it isn't cultural why I'm not free with sex, it's natural because of the capability of a woman of my bodily make up, so damn right...it's personal to me
I see what you are saying, but since I don't think or know that many people who think as sex as immoral if not used for reproduction, then I can't really put myself in their mindset. I know more people who have had sex for non-reproductive reasons. Some of those reasons weren't too smart though...and some were (simple pleasure and enjoyment).
I go to church every Sunday and my religion does not impose that sex is only for reproduction. I can't speak on other religions or churches, but mine does not. The hip-hop culture does not impose that sex is only for reproduction either. Religion is very, very personal to me. I do not impose that on my students when talking about sex..the only R word I bring up is RESPECT.
Subliminally, I can't really see that either, when I've been in and out of both for almost 30 years, but then again, maybe its something I don't see.
I can see your viewpoint with moral...*sigh* I'm on the fence about that really. In one aspect, I think the word is a judgement or imposes a judgement on the otherhand the word protects me from seeing more girls in the clinic with HIV. I don't know....
You are coming from a different world, and I think we are both saying or feeling parralel things, just different worlds.
I'm sorry, I don't want to go in circles with my babble. The point of my whole discussion is that everyone is different when it comes to their idealogies about sex, intimacy, etc. and that you can't ask everyone to be open and free about sex when again...it simply isn't an option and it not being an option isn't strictly reduced to society, government, religion, or cultural - it's just in my case, self-respect.
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deesh
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| Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 16:27 |
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....and I do want to point out that churches here (black ones) are caught up on sexuality (lifestyles), not sex and sometimes this takes away from the education.
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Little H - KSA
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
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Location: Too far west of where heaven lies
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| Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 17:22 |
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Let me try to differentiate between the free sex idea and intimacy -
*** deep breath - hoping I can keep this brief ***
. . . sex denotes engaging in physical activity with another human beings' genitalia and the process of mating (copulation/intercourse) . . . are you too envisioning animals sniffing eachother tails ???
AS OPPOSED TO:
. . . intimacy not being just the physical act of sex, it probably means to most people having fullfilling, healthy -pschylogical and physiological - sex with another human being, as well as simply being unconditionally honest and trusting to the utmost with the same person - and this usually accompanies what most of us call love, which in turn can lead to this being the best recipe for long term positive parenthood.
(Not straying from the tracks here, but please notice that I am being gender non-specific. I am Muslim, and Islam doesn't legitimize homosexual relations, however, I cannot support Islam's damnation of homosexuals. I wish non-Muslim homosexual couples were given their full rights (to marry, etc.) and were not victims of prejudice or differencial dealing.) |
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jamirokaki
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| Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 23:52 |
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| Quote: |
| You are coming from a different world, and I think we are both saying or feeling parralel things, just different worlds. |
i understand you too deesh
anyway, i think you are taking my reasonaments too personally, i'm not saying everyone should act like how i'm defending here, it may look that becasue in a way i'm defending a "radical pole" but of course i understand that nobody feels the same with the sex, the moral, the religion, and their nature.
i'm defending the right of acting that way freely, without being judged by a more restrictive vision of the sex wich is, in my opinion wich rules on most the cultures.
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jamirokaki
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| Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 23:59 |
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| Little H - KSA wrote: |
Let me try to differentiate between the free sex idea and intimacy -
*** deep breath - hoping I can keep this brief ***
. . . sex denotes engaging in physical activity with another human beings' genitalia and the process of mating (copulation/intercourse) . . . are you too envisioning animals sniffing eachother tails ???
AS OPPOSED TO:
. . . intimacy not being just the physical act of sex, it probably means to most people having fullfilling, healthy -pschylogical and physiological - sex with another human being, as well as simply being unconditionally honest and trusting to the utmost with the same person - and this usually accompanies what most of us call love, which in turn can lead to this being the best recipe for long term positive parenthood.
(Not straying from the tracks here, but please notice that I am being gender non-specific. I am Muslim, and Islam doesn't legitimize homosexual relations, however, I cannot support Islam's damnation of homosexuals. I wish non-Muslim homosexual couples were given their full rights (to marry, etc.) and were not victims of prejudice or differencial dealing.) |
i would say that the definition you give for "sex" would be better for sexual reproduction (of humans, and as talking of reproduction for man with woman).
sex is not only copulation, not even only penetration.
in opposite, i don't think the definition of the word "intimacy" need to be relationd with sex.
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Little H - KSA
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
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| Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 03:26 |
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| Little H - KSA wrote: |
| . . . sex denotes engaging in physical activity with another human beings' genitalia . . . |
This bit covers everything else that could be encompassess the word sex, that does not pertain to biological reproduction.
Not associating intimacy or intimacy being the precusor to sex, is what makes the difference and negates 'free sex' - without intimacy free sex has little value and no comparison. |
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deesh
Joined: 23 Feb 2002
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| Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 14:00 |
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| jamirokaki wrote: |
| Quote: |
| You are coming from a different world, and I think we are both saying or feeling parralel things, just different worlds. |
i understand you too deesh
anyway, i think you are taking my reasonaments too personally, i'm not saying everyone should act like how i'm defending here, it may look that becasue in a way i'm defending a "radical pole" but of course i understand that nobody feels the same with the sex, the moral, the religion, and their nature.
i'm defending the right of acting that way freely, without being judged by a more restrictive vision of the sex wich is, in my opinion wich rules on most the cultures. |
You are right . I do take it very personally, because for one talking about sex, sexual acts, sexual education, and human interaction are my passions, my interests - as it relates to society, cultural, religion, race, etc...so you've hit a big nerve (in a positive way) with this discussion. You are talking about what I teach, live and experience -- so when you related freedom of sex to religion and culture, I have to speak up about the culture or religion in which I live. Although I wouldn't expect you to know about those (like I wouldn't know about yours), it would be unjust of me to not speak up.
But I am interested in your journey as you defend this right. And I'm interested in how exactly we or people can exercise this "right of acting that way freely, without being judged by a more restrictive vision of the sex wich is, in my opinion wich rules on most the cultures."?
What exactly do you suggest we do to change what in your mind culture has ruled?
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deesh
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| Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 14:05 |
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| Little H - KSA wrote: |
| Little H - KSA wrote: |
| . . . sex denotes engaging in physical activity with another human beings' genitalia . . . |
This bit covers everything else that could be encompassess the word sex, that does not pertain to biological reproduction.
Not associating intimacy or intimacy being the precusor to sex, is what makes the difference and negates 'free sex' - without intimacy free sex has little value and no comparison. |
It's so sad how basic human right has stipulations and exceptions (speaking of the Islam-homosexual post)
I really like the last statement you made about intimacy H.
Must start work now, but...I'm thinking, I'm thinking now about sex vs. sexual intimacy.
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