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gabik
Joined: 11 Feb 2004
Posts: 105
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 Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 20:09 |
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@Monisum :
Jaja !
Aber ich sag zu sowas nichts mehr. Jedem das seine.
Aber man muss doch gerade bei so einem Thema nicht jedem seine
mittelalterlichen Vorstellungen an den Kopf hauen, oder ?
Aber was red ich ?
Böse ich, böse ich...
Ich geh jetzt besser mal ne Runde beten und Buße tun :
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starman
Joined: 22 Nov 2004
Posts: 143
Location: Split, Croatia
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| Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 20:59 |
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| monisum wrote: |
starman wrote:
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| cos only like that we can have some moral ''organisation'' |
Sorry but these words just make my stomach turn upside down  |
why? 
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zdravi i veseli bili |
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monisum
Joined: 30 Jun 2004
Posts: 1327
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 22:24 |
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About:
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monisum wrote:
starman wrote: Quote:
cos only like that we can have some moral ''organisation''
Sorry but these words just make my stomach turn upside down
why?
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I posted that spontaniously. Normally I avoid these topics cause I am not on this forum to discuss religion or politics, I am mainly here to share my interest in Jamiroquai.
But if you want to hear my personal view: For me moral organisation can be found only by oneself. You build up your own moral within times when growing up and everyone has its own moral in its character. I don't need and don't like (for me) to be organized by anyone else and especially no institution. I got a free will do decide for my own what is wrong or right for me. I don't need the church as institution for being religious or a political party to shout out my own opinions. I am responsible for myself and can deal and live with that. But that's only my personal view.
If someone thinks he needs guidance in life, by whatever organisation...that's Ok. 
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Jamirobeto
Joined: 30 Oct 2004
Posts: 258
Location: Lima, Peru
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| Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 23:28 |
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| coz church needs to be like it was 2000 years ago and i oppose everyone that try to change it,it has strong foundations and it resisted to all sorts of temptation.. |
Ok... church needs to be like it was 2000 years ago... and now it is not... that's why we need a change... I mean... go back to the roots... Lots of the traditions of the church were created in the middle ages and reflected the way these people thought.
I was going to write an answer to monisum's post... but i dont wanna get in to trouble... now i know why these topics are so hard to discuss... sometimes is better to remain quiet.
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PietroChocko
Joined: 02 Oct 2003
Posts: 676
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| Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2005 01:00 |
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| monisum wrote: |
I don't need and don't like (for me) to be organized by anyone else and especially no institution. I got a free will do decide for my own what is wrong or right for me. I don't need the church as institution for being religious or a political party to shout out my own opinions. I am responsible for myself and can deal and live with that. But that's only my personal view.
If someone thinks he needs guidance in life, by whatever organisation...that's Ok. |
no probs with that. but remember that alot of people like to align their morals to be seen holy and pure in the eyes of God, not oneself.
so monisum, that isnt a shot at you; i know alot of people who arent christians/catholics who have better morals than some church-goers!
i'm sure that your own morals are seen true in the eyes of everyone else. have a good day  |
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gabik
Joined: 11 Feb 2004
Posts: 105
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| Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2005 06:24 |
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Jamirobeto wrote :
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| Ok... church needs to be like it was 2000 years ago... and now it is not... that's why we need a change... I mean... go back to the roots... Lots of the traditions of the church were created in the middle ages and reflected the way these people thought. |
@Jamirobeto :
You are absolutely right there , mate.
At least one thinking person in this forum !
That´s why I asked starman what he means by " the church should stay
conservative" !
The church as it is today is not conservative !
It is not the Original . It is a product of changes .
And a lot of these changes were made in the Middle Ages.
If the church really was conservative it would have to go back to the times Jesus lived.
So they would have to get rid of the whole "institutional stuff".
Because back then the Church was no institution.
If they really were conservative they would have to get rid of
the pope and the cardinals. Because in Jesus times there wasn´t anything like that.
So every logically thinking human being has to see :
The church as it is today is not the original thing.
It is a product of - sometimes bad - changes of the middle ages.
And because it is just an aberration of the original it can be changed.Because aberrations of the Original should be changed. |
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cheeeba lover
Joined: 08 Jun 2004
Posts: 753
Location: croatia
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| Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2005 07:15 |
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| gabik wrote: |
If the Church had stayed like it was 2000 years ago, there
wouldn´t be a Pope or Kardinals or whatever.
Because there wasn´t anything like that 2000 years ago.
There was just Jesus and the apostels and the people who listened to his speeches.
So please don´t tell me the Church shouldn´t change and it should stay like it was 2000 years ago, because it has already changed, my dear...
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funny you say that,but let me teach you about history of the church...do you know what does pope represent?do you know that the one who "invented" it is jesus christ,do you know that jesus christ elected peter to guide his church and to have people who will lead it after him(popes)..so there was an election of the pope 2000 years ago; 
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"on the bass st.st..st..stuuu zender!!" |
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gabik
Joined: 11 Feb 2004
Posts: 105
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| Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2005 08:01 |
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Very interesting, cheeba lover !
But unfortunately Jesus did not say the following, my dear :
1.) Women aren´t aloud to be priests. ( That´s unfortunately an invention of the Middle Ages, because in Jesus times there were women preachers , my dear. )
2. )Don´t use anti perception means like the pill and the condom.
Go on spreading Aids.
Sex is just for making kids not for having fun.
( Also an invention of the "new Church". )
3.) To have sex if you are not married is a sin.
4. )Someone who marries someone from another religion should be expelled from the Church.
5. ) People who are divorced are not allowed to marry again.
6.) Homosexuality is a sin.
7. ) People who don´t share your opinions are witches and must be burnt alive.
9.) Preachers are not allowed to have sex. They must live in celibacy.
( Another invention of the medieval Church )
8.) You should sexually abuse children who come to you and trust you.
( Sexual abuse of children by priests can be seen as the
direct result of the celibacy! If you aren´t allowed to
have sex, why not live it out in secret with children,
right Cheeba ? )
These are just a few of the things Jesus never said, and yet the Church teaches them and practices them.
Maybe you should stop smoking so much "Cheeba " , cheebalover, because it´s not so good for your thinking capabilities.
If you would really stick to what the Bible says you wouldn´t use drugs, my dear. The Bible tells us to keep our bodies healthy , my dear .
Here´s just a little quote for you :
| Quote: |
| 1 Corinthians 6:19-20: "What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's." |
Last edited by gabik on Sat Apr 23, 2005 08:17; edited 1 time in total |
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CosmicMouse
Jamirotalk mum
Joined: 10 Feb 2002
Posts: 4821
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2005 08:10 |
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Can we just please discuss respectfully, without getting personal and abusive, please?
Agree to disagree, bring good arguments, facts and opinions. Maybe correct others who might have wrong informations or whatever. There is no need to get insulting.
Just respect others opinions. Is it so hard?
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I'm walking on air and every cloud is Cloud 9. ~ |
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VirtuallyInsane
Joined: 10 Jun 2002
Posts: 868
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| Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2005 09:18 |
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To back up Meike's comments...
As has already been mentioned, we all have free will so we can't pass judgement on others... |
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FRA
Jamily Coach & Correspondent
Joined: 07 Aug 2004
Posts: 5477
Location: London don
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| Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2005 11:54 |
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Gabik wrote:
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Maybe you should stop smoking so much "Cheeba " , cheebalover, because it´s not so good for your thinking capabilities.
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Uhm......are u sure of what u said, Gabik?
Anyway, i don't want to begin a talk about drugs......but u were too offensive with Ivan; even if u were right with your religion ideas, now, with this behaviour, u turn an the wrong side 
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cheeeba lover
Joined: 08 Jun 2004
Posts: 753
Location: croatia
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| Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2005 12:33 |
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| gabik wrote: |
Very interesting, cheeba lover !
But unfortunately Jesus did not say the following, my dear :
1.) Women aren´t aloud to be priests. ( That´s unfortunately an invention of the Middle Ages, because in Jesus times there were women preachers , my dear. )
2. )Don´t use anti perception means like the pill and the condom.
Go on spreading Aids.
Sex is just for making kids not for having fun.
( Also an invention of the "new Church". )
3.) To have sex if you are not married is a sin.
4. )Someone who marries someone from another religion should be expelled from the Church.
5. ) People who are divorced are not allowed to marry again.
6.) Homosexuality is a sin.
7. ) People who don´t share your opinions are witches and must be burnt alive.
9.) Preachers are not allowed to have sex. They must live in celibacy.
( Another invention of the medieval Church )
8.) You should sexually abuse children who come to you and trust you.
( Sexual abuse of children by priests can be seen as the
direct result of the celibacy! If you aren´t allowed to
have sex, why not live it out in secret with children,
right Cheeba ? )
| Quote: |
| 1 Corinthians 6:19-20: "What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's." |
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1.this is a tricky one and i dont really know what to say,it takes hours of debating.
2. and 3. if there werent gay people,aids would not be so spread all over the world,mostly they are the carriers of the disease,so nature has funny ways showing when something is unnatural.
4.i dont know for this one and i dont believe that church declared this,but if this is true then its pathetic.i strongly disagree! 
5.i dont aprove this one too!
6.i agree,but you musnt deny their rights,they should have every right as ever man..except ADOPTING CHILDREN
7.come on this is not right,it was in middle ages.. and yes i agree church was very wrong with this
8. and 9 totally agree with you.
you seem to missunderstood me;i never said that church is perfect..it is a congregation of PEOPLE so it must be imperfect,coz all the priests are not the same,they all have their weaknesses as any man.
and i never offended you,i just said hypothetically if you were "high" and you insult me..well thats ok if you cant say anything with arguments then its your right to offend me.. 
and for your last quote.. god created cheeba,and it has medical use,and its great for you mind.. your inhibitions will dissapear
cheers
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"on the bass st.st..st..stuuu zender!!" |
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PietroChocko
Joined: 02 Oct 2003
Posts: 676
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| Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2005 13:09 |
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| gabik wrote: |
If you would really stick to what the Bible says you wouldn´t use drugs, my dear. The Bible tells us to keep our bodies healthy , my dear .
Here´s just a little quote for you :
| Quote: |
| 1 Corinthians 6:19-20: "What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's." |
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ooooooh right on the money here.
| gabik wrote: |
| 3.) To have sex if you are not married is a sin. |
he did not comprehensively say that, but he did say that "if anyone looks at a woman and wants to sin sexually with her, in his mind he has already done that with the woman." (Matthew 5:28 ).
look most christians remain abstinent before marriage because they know that sex OUTSIDE of marriage is not blessed by God. If you save yourself for the person you're gonna spend the rest of your life with then no one gets hurt through your sexual promiscuity.
The whole thing is about not hurting people. If you give yourself to someone and they go and hurt you by sleeping with someone else then people get hurt.
God made sex so great in order to strengthen the relationship between man and wife so it's a very powerful thing.
That's why there's so much damage that can be caused if sex is not in its correct context.
| gabik wrote: |
| 5. ) People who are divorced are not allowed to marry again. |
It clearly states (in Matthew 5:32) that the only grounds for divorce are if the fellow spouse has committed adultery, and anyone who marries that divorced man/woman is guilty of adultery.
this can be confused to meaning that both parties are now not sanctified to be married, and the Catholic church has fallen for this.
| gabik wrote: |
| 6.) Homosexuality is a sin. |
just because Jesus didn't say it does not mean that God didn't say it.
| The Bible wrote: |
| 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (NIV): "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters, nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God." |
now the above clearly says that they will not inherit the Kingdom Of God unless they are forgiven of their sins and are filled with the Holy Spirit. we are human. Jesus died on the cross for everyones own sins.
so Da Church is right in outlawing homosexuality, it is sinful.
| gabik wrote: |
| 1.) Women aren´t aloud to be priests. ( That´s unfortunately an invention of the Middle Ages, because in Jesus times there were women preachers , my dear. ) |
i think somewhere in Timothy or in one of the letters from Paul it says that Women shouldn't be allowed to teach and preach but that was because, at the time women didn't have any real religious knowledge, but now that they do have a firm knowledge base (basically identical to their male counterparts), it is accepted practice to have female preachers.
not having them is not an indictment on the Church, but moreso a fixation on old/outdated teachings which have been not read thouroughly.
| gabik wrote: |
| Sex is just for making kids not for having fun. |
Sex is both of these, but must be done in moderation.
In my books, sex is like beer. it is great when used in the manner God intended it to be used.
i have never had sex or drunk beer, and i know what i'm missing out on, but i can wait until God says yes.
PS: i got alot of my info from http://bible.com/answers/answers.html and Andrew V. (not a part of this forum) thanks Andrew! |
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Noe
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 112
Location: Buenos Aires. Argentina
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| Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 23:29 |
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I didn't think this was going to be the start of a thoughts fight. I just asked out of interest what do you think about the new Pope. I don't have a clue about religion (I consider myself catholic 'cos I've been baptised, but don't ask me for more) In fact, I didn't get most of the posts so far. I only can say that we have to respect the different religions and we also have to respect how people lives and feels religions.
I don't agree with the conservative catholic thoughts, but that doesn't mean I won't accept the people who do agree.
Kisses to all
Noe
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EvoV
Joined: 02 Dec 2003
Posts: 1421
Location: figueira da foz - Portugal
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| Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2005 00:21 |
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see whois the "fire-starter" of wars?
YEs my dears is the relegions, you can say no , you can say yes , but the true is that the major cause of the wars is the religion and don't tell me no about that.
I tink all of you are full of bad toxines  , and should relax much more , join the hindu /budah spirit , and let or mind be free and clean with your soul.
We should all listen chillout...and relax 
Drink some ice tea...
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