jamirotalk.net header image
 

Impressum / EditorialEditorial  FAQFAQ  SearchSearch  MemberlistMemberlist  RegisterRegister  ProfileProfile  Private messagesPrivate messages  Log inLog in

Vegetarian diet - doubts and facts!
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    JAMIROTALK.NET Forum Index -> Off-topic
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message

ophone



Joined: 31 May 2005
Posts: 2191
Location: Lëtzebuerg


PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 05:38    Reply with quote

Vegetarian diet - doubts and facts!
I know, the massive production of meat is also destroying our planet, by producing lots of CO2 and by destroying forests, but I like meat so much. I should eat less of it, but I still think that a diet without meat, or at least milk products, is unhealthy, especially for children. They need the animal proteines to grow up.

I come back to something I said in another thread: On German television I saw a woman who used to be vegetarian (not vegan). As she started to eat meat she felt way fitter and had more energy.

Just look into our mouth! We have those special pointy teeth (four of them) every carnivore has. (Those called "Schneidezähne" in German.) You know those Dracula has a set of very long ones. (Aren't they called canines?). We are technicaly meant to eat meat and our organism needs it.

Vegetarians make me always very sceptical, Vegans even more. I think they play with their health as me playing with my health smoking and eating too much meat.
You can't tell me that there is any sort of grain or mushroom that can replace meat in the human diet. (By the way, I'm not very keen on mushrooms.)
_________________
Back to top 
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger

CosmicMouse
Jamirotalk mum


Joined: 10 Feb 2002
Posts: 4821
Location: Germany


PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 06:02    Reply with quote


ophone, I am in a hurry right now so just a short one:

sorry to say that you are blended by prejudice in this case. in the article i wrote for that website (deesha posted the link some time ago - read it again) I am writing the facts which are scientifically confirmed. If you want I can go deeper into each point when I have more time - I am engaging myself in nutrition since more than 10 years and I even received training in foodcoaching, so I know a lot about those things.

Have to go now.. you will hear later from me! Wink

Mouse
_________________
~ I look up to Heaven, every star I see is mine.
I'm walking on air and every cloud is Cloud 9. ~
Back to top 
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website

CosmicMouse
Jamirotalk mum


Joined: 10 Feb 2002
Posts: 4821
Location: Germany


PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 10:49    Reply with quote


Hi ophone,

I didn't want to write this into the movie topic, so I decided to split your post so I can give a detailed answer here and answer further questions if needed.
I will go into each point you are mentioning one after another.
Here we go:


Quote:
I still think that a diet without meat, or at least milk products, is unhealthy, especially for children. They need the animal proteines to grow up.


A whole food-vegetarian diet guarantees an optimal coverage of all nutrients - that's a fact and proved in countless scientific long-term studies. Meat is nutritionally speaking not needed. You can ask your doctor about it, but keep in mind that doctors are not fully-trained nutritionists. In fact the part of nutrition in their education is very low. So, you might get more profunded information from a nutritionist.

Of course, if you just eat white bread with marmelade, chips and pasta with ketchup and drink milkshakes and coca cola... then I admit you might get some health problems, but this is not a question about eating meat or not. All kind of onesided, unballanced diet is unhealthy, no question about it. Vegetarians are generally very health-conscious and take care about their food.

What are the good ingredients in meat?
Well, first there is protein. Again and again you can hear or read that a vegetarian diet does not deliver enough protein for the human body. That's simply a myth. The daily needs of protein is between 25g and 30g - most people consume multiple times more of it. Actually the animal protein is not fully usable for the human body. Those not degradable proteins as well as the cholesterol will stay in your arteries and will cause arterial plaque, will interfere the bood-circulation. The heart has to work harder. High blood pressure - the cause of many heartdiseases - and also a lot of age-diseases (Alzheimer) are linked to this.

The consumption of meat is a risk factor for a range of diseases like diabetes, obesity, osteoporosis, cardio-vascular diseases, cancer, arthritis, inflammations, asthma, allergies and more. Vegetarians have better blood pressure and cholesterol values, they have less weight problems, and their immune defense works better. Within vegetarians you will find less arthritis-patients and very rarely diabetics.

So, where to get your protein from if not from meat?
If you consume milk-products and eggs you have abolutely no reason to worry about. And even without any animal products you can easily get your proteins by eating whole-grain products (bread, pasta), potatoes, all kind of beans, soy, tofu, lentils and other pulses, nuts and seeds.

Best example are my two boys who are vegetarians from day one.
They are very healthy, and full of energy. Everyone who knows them can confirm this! Very Happy Our doctors have always been very pleased about their growth and development.


Quote:
I come back to something I said in another thread: On German television I saw a woman who used to be vegetarian (not vegan). As she started to eat meat she felt way fitter and had more energy.


You saw one person on television who has made these experiences. Well, I know hundreds of examples that prove the opposite. Of course when you hear such things you have to go deeper and ask some things: how long did she try the vegetarian diet? What did she eat in her vegetarian times? There can be so many reasons for loosing energy - one thing for example could be that she thought she has to compensate the absense of meat with milk. So maybe she consumed a lot of milk-product which contain calcium. Calcium blocks the absorbtion of iron. So she might have had an iron defency which makes you tired and less energy.
That could be one reason. If I knew more about the circumstances I could tell you more of course. This was just an example to show you that her statement is not the proove that meat gives you more energy.


Quote:
Just look into our mouth! We have those special pointy teeth (four of them) every carnivore has. (Those called "Schneidezähne" in German.) You know those Dracula has a set of very long ones. (Aren't they called canines?). We are technicaly meant to eat meat and our organism needs it.


Ok, let's check the human body and our tools to eat and digest food.
Let's compare meat eaters and plant eaters - so you can then decide where to consider the humans:

Meat Eaters:
- Has Claws
- No pores on skin: perspires through tongue
- Pointed front teeth to tear flesh
- No flat back molar teeth to grind food
- Salivary glands in mouth (not needed to pre-digest grains & fruits)
- Acid saliva: no enzyme ptyalin to pre-digest grains
- Strong hydrochloric acid in stomach to digest tough animal muscle.
- Intestinal tract only 3 times body length so rapidly decaying meat can pass out of body quickly


Plant Eaters
- No Claws
- Perspires through pores on the skin
- No sharp pointed front teeth
- Flat back molar teeth to grind food
- Well developed salivary glands, needed to pre-digest grains & fruits
- Alkaline saliva, much ptyalin to pre-digest grains
- Stomach acid 20 times less strong than meat-eaters
- Intestinal tract several times body length (plant foods do not decay as quickly so can pass more slowly through the body)


Humans
- No Claws
- Perspires through pores on the skin
- No sharp pointed front teeth
- Flat back molar teeth to grind food
- Well developed salivary glands, needed to pre-digest grains & fruits
- Alkaline saliva, much ptyalin to pre-digest grains
- Stomach acid 20 times less strong than meat-eaters
- Intestinal tract several times body length (plant foods do not decay as quickly so can pass more slowly through the body)


Human characteristics are in every way like the fruit eaters, very similar to the grass- eater, and very unlike the meat eaters.The human digestive system, tooth and jaw structure, and bodily functions are completely different from carnivorous animals. As in the case of the anthropoid ape, the human digestive system is twelve times the length of the body; our skin has millions of tiny pores to evaporate water and cool the body by sweating; we drink water by suction like all other vegetarian animals; our tooth and jaw structure is vegetarian; and our saliva is alkaline and contains ptyalin for predigestion of grains. Human beings clearly are not carnivores by physiology -- our anatomy and digestive system show that we must have evolved for millions of years living on fruits, nuts, grains, and vegetables.

Furthermore, it is obvious that our natural instincts are non-carnivorous. Most people have other people kill their meat for them and would be sickened if they had to do the killing themselves. Instead of eating raw meat as all flesh-eating animals do, humans boil, bake, or fry it and disguise it with all kinds of sauces and spices so that it bears no resemblance to its raw state. One scientist explains it this way: "A cat will salivate with hungry desire at the smell of a piece of raw flesh but not at all at the smell of fruit. If man could delight in pouncing upon a bird, tear its still-living limbs apart with his teeth, and suck the warm blood, one might conclude that nature provided him with meat-eating instinct. On the other hand, a bunch of luscious grapes makes his mouth water, and even in the absence of hunger he will eat fruit because it tastes so good."

Scientists and naturalists, including the great Charles Darwin who gave the theory of evolution, agree that early humans were fruit and vegetable eaters and that throughout history our anatomy has not changed. The great Swedish scientist von Linné states: "Man's structure, external and internal, compared with that of the other animals, shows that fruit and succulent vegetables constitute his natural food."


Quote:
Vegetarians make me always very sceptical, Vegans even more. I think they play with their health as me playing with my health smoking and eating too much meat.


I absolutley disagree. Vegetarians are very health-concious. I have written a lot about this above already - it is a fact that a vegetarian diet is definitely the better one. The basis of course is that you just don't skip meat but take care about a healthy, balanced mixture of food. No convenience food, whole-grain products, fresh (!) fruits and vegetables, nuts, pulses... then you have the best conditions for a long and healthy life without all the risks a meat-based diet has.
I haven't even started to talk about the toxins, hormones and antibiotics which you eat when eating meat.

Quote:
You can't tell me that there is any sort of grain or mushroom that can replace meat in the human diet. (By the way, I'm not very keen on mushrooms.)


Now we are talking about taste.
If you one day decide to skip meat (for health reasons or environmental reasons) then you don't have to worry about what to eat, really. You have an abundance of possibilites to create easy and so yummy dishes... you just have to find them out!
If you really want that "feeling" of eating meat then you can buy many many products meanwhile who try to copy different meat-product. I admit I never really had tried them for a long time because I just didn't miss the taste of meat. But I recently tried those products and I can say that you can make any meal you are used to with "fake" meat based on soy or wheat.
I mean, what gives meat the taste it has, actually? It is mainly the spices and the consistence when you bite into it. It is easy to copy the consistence of meat with those soy products. With the right spices it is really delicious and you can imitate most every meat-dish you can imagine.

We live in the 21th century and we have so many options to choose from today - we can replace so many things nowadays - there is no need to eat meat at all. There are so many alternatives, good alternatives. You just have to be open for new things, try different options, get information from independent (!) sources and you will see that there is no single reason to support this perverted mass-production, the immense waste of resources, the destruction of the environment, the suffering of all those living beings. There is no single reason.

Ophone, I will send you more detailed text about the health aspects in a PM - in german.
If you still have questions, let me know.

Mouse
_________________
~ I look up to Heaven, every star I see is mine.
I'm walking on air and every cloud is Cloud 9. ~
Back to top 
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website

Maxud



Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Posts: 1281
Location: Germany


PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 13:19    Reply with quote


thank you for your comment
but i love my "claws"
and i dont want to confirm myself to a veggie. Wink
_________________
maxud braucht funk food denn dann bleibt maxud maxud

tell me if these are ligh years...
dont stop the beat...
Back to top 
View user's profile Send private message

deesh



Joined: 23 Feb 2002
Posts: 2717
Location: +001


PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 14:21    Reply with quote


Here is the article: http://www.geoclan.com/community/ForYouForTheAnimalsForTheWorld.htm

I am short on time, but I gave up red meat before and then went back to it, and recently gave it up this year again on May 11th. I am having a hard time giving up chicken and turkey. Hopefully after the holidays, I will. It is hard for me because of how I grew up. Why not try it - is my thought process. If I don't like it or my body reacts negative (which I can't see it doing), then I'll start eating poultry again. I am excited at the possibilities of trying something new.

I love, love, love red meat, so this was a challenge for me, and still is, especially when I have a boyfriend who still eats it. He has however compromised in other ways like turkey bacon, organic eggs and such.

I have never eaten pork, ham, etc...and neither does he (before me) so that works.

It's hard as hell but I feel great. I thought I wouldn't know what to eat, but with the help of the internet and Meike/Miran I have learned some new recipes and learned that cooking with vegetables isn't the end of the world. LOL

I decided to go red meat free after reading a book given to me by Meike. She didn't send it to me to try and conform me, but to give me an alternate sense and outlook on enviromentalism as it relates to myself.

Do I believe everything in the book? So-So. There are some things that are disputable, but there is more fact (to me) than opinion.

Since giving up red meat, I can say my digestive system is way more functional (trying to be clean about it) and with the combination of some other things, I overall feel great.

My point being - IN MY OPINION - we don't NEED red meat to survive and I'm doing just fine without it, but if you choose to eat it...that is your choice and I certaintly don't look down on anyone for it.
_________________
www.dee34.wordpress.com
Back to top 
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address MSN Messenger

CosmicMouse
Jamirotalk mum


Joined: 10 Feb 2002
Posts: 4821
Location: Germany


PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 15:57    Reply with quote


deesh wrote:
I decided to go red meat free after reading a book given to me by Meike. She didn't send it to me to try and conform me, but to give me an alternate sense and outlook on enviromentalism as it relates to myself.


Exactly, Deesh, I am glad you didn't think I wanted to "conform" you.
I don't want to conform anyone because everyone has to decide for himself/herself what to do and what not to do.
BUT I think it is important to know all sides and facts about an issue before you can make a propper decision. Especially when our decisions have an impact on our own health, on the healthyness of our planet earth and last but not least on other lives - the lives of animals.

I mean, I am a person who is trying to get as much information about a thing before I make a decision. I do know all those things because I am searching for the information since years. I am not satisfied to know only one side.
I am an information-collector - I've read so many books, studies and stuff about nutrition, about vegetarianism and about health, of both sides, pro and contra. So I know why I go this path.
But so many people don't know these facts. Even worse: they are full of false information which have been proven wrong long ago.

So, what I wanted to say: Don't see my posting as preaches. See it as a provider of information because my intention is to bring people on the same information level as I am. Which conclusion you draw with this knowledge is everyone's own business then.

Mouse
_________________
~ I look up to Heaven, every star I see is mine.
I'm walking on air and every cloud is Cloud 9. ~
Back to top 
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website

jgrizz



Joined: 12 Jan 2005
Posts: 1049
Location: Claremont/Southern California/USA


PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 16:52    Reply with quote


Very Happy Wow CosmicMouse very well constructed! And very informative just like you said it should be.

I can see his point about humans having those meat-cutting teeth. I think we were designed to probably be able to eat both meats and veggies. So we might be a "hybrid" of sorts.

In my opinion it's all about moderation. Not too much meat, and not too much fruit. I mean you can't just eat fruit only, we need a smart balance.

I have said before that I was a strict vegitarian for 10 years part of that time also a vegan. I have since about the time my son was born, have started to eat meat, I'd say pretty frequently. BUT, this is because of two reasons:

1) there are now more local health food stores that sell organic, grass fed meat.

2) I felt after that 10 years that I was becoming a little too anemic by not eating any meat at all.

So I guess what I am getting at is there can be health side effects IF you arent trying aggressivly to eat a really balanced vegitarian diet.

One reason for that is it can be really hard in our fast pased society to eat a healthy vegitarian diet. Here in LA there are fast food restaurants on every single corner. And for the most part, if you live in LA and work or even go to school here, you have to eat at those unhealthy places a lot, because there just isn't time to go home and cook a healthy meal 24/7.

if I could i probably would always choose a veggie meal over a beef brisket or something like that. It just isn't always available.

People definetly need to more informed and educated about balancing thier diet better not only for health reasons but also environmental too.

thanks ! great work Cosmic Mousie!!!
Back to top 
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website

CosmicMouse
Jamirotalk mum


Joined: 10 Feb 2002
Posts: 4821
Location: Germany


PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 18:27    Reply with quote


Quote:

I can see his point about humans having those meat-cutting teeth. I think we were designed to probably be able to eat both meats and veggies. So we might be a "hybrid" of sorts.


I agree, with our teeth we can eat meat, but only if it is cooked or at least hackled. You could also give a horse or a cow (which are both vegetarian!) some pieces of meat - they could grind it and eat it for sure - like humans can!
They wouldn't fall down and die at the moment, that's for sure. Also it's clear that humans are able to eat meat. We can eat a lot of things (like sugar) but the question is, if it is healthy on the long run.

Those teeth you are talking about are useful to open and eat fruits, roots and such things. I really doubt that their evolutional cause was meant to chew meat.

Our digestive system is definely not predestinated to digest meat. Our intestine is way longer than those of meat-eaters. Meat stays very long in our intestine and even starts to rot before it can be excreted.


Quote:
In my opinion it's all about moderation. Not too much meat, and not too much fruit. I mean you can't just eat fruit only, we need a smart balance.


I agree on that. And it is great that you can eat balanced without the need of meat.

Quote:
One reason for that is it can be really hard in our fast pased society to eat a healthy vegitarian diet.


When I am at home with a full refridgerator I have absolutely no problem to eat meat-free. There are hundreds or even thousands of good dishes you can cook. I could fill books with it. (maybe I will!) It's never getting boring, I swear.

But I agree that when you are eating outside your home, the offerings are not satisfying. At some places it is better at some you can only eat chips and a salat if you are a vegetarian. But I am lucky and can eat at home most of the time. Still, I must say that the choice of vegetarian dishes in restaurants is getting better and better nowadays.

Quote:
People definetly need to more informed and educated about balancing thier diet better not only for health reasons but also environmental too.

What would my friend Deesh say? ... WORD! good

Mouse
_________________
~ I look up to Heaven, every star I see is mine.
I'm walking on air and every cloud is Cloud 9. ~
Back to top 
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website

CosmicMouse
Jamirotalk mum


Joined: 10 Feb 2002
Posts: 4821
Location: Germany


PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 20:58    Reply with quote


Oh, one intesting thing I remembered now, speaking of teeth...

Gorillas are vegetarians, too - and they have similar teeth to human's. Their canines can be even longer than ours. 4monkey
_________________
~ I look up to Heaven, every star I see is mine.
I'm walking on air and every cloud is Cloud 9. ~
Back to top 
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website

Maxud



Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Posts: 1281
Location: Germany


PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 21:27    Reply with quote


http://www.cardiologe.de/index_extern.html?/patient/info/kurz_fuendig/ernaehrung/veg_leberw.htm

no way to conform me to something!
jehovas witness tried it
the christs tried it
hare krishna tried it too there damn crazy ppl... Laughing
as good as they tried to tell me that its good what they do they had all blood an their hands! nothing is pefect.
to eat meat to avoid meat everything...
_________________
maxud braucht funk food denn dann bleibt maxud maxud

tell me if these are ligh years...
dont stop the beat...
Back to top 
View user's profile Send private message

Cosmic Noe



Joined: 03 Nov 2007
Posts: 101
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina


PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 19:49    Reply with quote


Bollocks! I understand to those who choose not to eat meat and be vegetarian. But come to Argentina, try some of the best steak in the world (if not THE best) and then tell me you didn't enjoy it....It's almost impossible to be vegetarian here. I wouldn't even try to be, I enjoy our "asados" (like an american Barbacue, but 100 million times better) very much 'cos is not only about eating meat but also getting together with family or friends and have a nice time. It's part of a culture. Cows producing CO2? Trust me Ophone, is not the most important thing around here having Finland's paper maker in front of our coasts (btw, Finland should take their own sh%t back home!! NO A LAS PAPELERAS!!!!)

Kisses to all, meat eaters or not.
Noe
_________________
Call me up, turn me on, tune me in...
Back to top 
View user's profile Send private message

CosmicMouse
Jamirotalk mum


Joined: 10 Feb 2002
Posts: 4821
Location: Germany


PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 09:51    Reply with quote


Maxud, please read my posts... I thought I made clear what the intention of my messages is:

CosmicMouse wrote:

I don't want to conform anyone because everyone has to decide for himself/herself what to do and what not to do.
BUT I think it is important to know all sides and facts about an issue before you can make a propper decision. Especially when our decisions have an impact on our own health, on the healthyness of our planet earth and last but not least on other lives - the lives of animals.

Don't see my posting as preaches. See it as a provider of information because my intention is to bring people on the same information level as I am. Which conclusion you draw with this knowledge is everyone's own business then.


My messages addresses to people who are interested in environmental issues, health informations and animal rights. I don't understand your comparisson with religions. To care about health, animals and the global warming has nothing to do with religion in the first place.

That's all: I do care and all I do here now is to share my thoughts and information.

Mouse
_________________
~ I look up to Heaven, every star I see is mine.
I'm walking on air and every cloud is Cloud 9. ~
Back to top 
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website

Andrew



Joined: 26 Oct 2004
Posts: 1015
Location: Australia


PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 10:16    Reply with quote


CosmicMouse wrote:
Oh, one intesting thing I remembered now, speaking of teeth...

Gorillas are vegetarians, too - and they have similar teeth to human's. Their canines can be even longer than ours. 4monkey


Gorillas and chimpanzees are 'opportunist' carnivores too aren't they? Much like early humans, they're primarily herbivores, but will eat meat if it's around... Primates have pretty much all evolved as omnivores right?

I might be completely wrong here, but it was my understanding that we started to eat more meat as we migrated out of Africa to more temperate climates, and meat was a more effective way to maintain weight and therefore warmth against the cold. The harnessing of fire allowed cooked meat to be better digested...

Seems these days its more a question of morality, ethics and personal choice rather than neccessity.
Back to top 
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website

CosmicMouse
Jamirotalk mum


Joined: 10 Feb 2002
Posts: 4821
Location: Germany


PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 10:18    Reply with quote


Did you know that?

To produce 1 kg meat you need 20.000 litres of water.
To produce 1 kg grain you need only 50 litres of water.

This means: The needed quantity of water to get 5 kg meat is equal to the annual (= one whole year!!) consumption of water of 2 persons!


------


To produce the meat for one burger consumes as much fossil fuel as you waste for a 32 km drive with a compact car, and the same quantity of water you could take 17 showers from.


------




Mouse
_________________
~ I look up to Heaven, every star I see is mine.
I'm walking on air and every cloud is Cloud 9. ~
Back to top 
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website

CosmicMouse
Jamirotalk mum


Joined: 10 Feb 2002
Posts: 4821
Location: Germany


PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 10:27    Reply with quote


Andrew wrote:
Gorillas and chimpanzees are 'opportunist' carnivores too aren't they? Much like early humans, they're primarily herbivores, but will eat meat if it's around... Primates have pretty much all evolved as omnivores right?


From what I have learned chimpanzees do eat insects and also hunt in groups for little animals, but gorillas actually are vegetarians.

But this discussion about our "ancestors" is so unrelevant. I would never use it as a clincher for being vegetarian. If I had teeth like a tiger I still would not eat my fellow creatures - as long as there are supermarkets and I don't have to fight for survival.
_________________
~ I look up to Heaven, every star I see is mine.
I'm walking on air and every cloud is Cloud 9. ~
Back to top 
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    JAMIROTALK.NET Forum Index -> Off-topic All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Page 1 of 6

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group