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Funkiroquai
Joined: 19 Mar 2008
Posts: 1176
Location: T'bilisi, Georgia
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 Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 19:39 |
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| Zsoma wrote: |
| alyd wrote: |
Jay may still wear tracksuits but he's changed musically and creatively over that period and I think quite a lot of his fans should too. |
Strongly disagree - why would I need to change my taste in music? |
you say "why would I need", but it's happened, it's a fact.. 
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Zsoma
Joined: 23 Nov 2004
Posts: 1369
Location: Hungary
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| Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 19:49 |
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| Funkiroquai wrote: |
| Zsoma wrote: |
| alyd wrote: |
Jay may still wear tracksuits but he's changed musically and creatively over that period and I think quite a lot of his fans should too. |
Strongly disagree - why would I need to change my taste in music? |
you say "why would I need", but it's happened, it's a fact.. |
No it hasn't happened yet, I dig their oldschool stuff, the disco funk of AFO & Dynamite too but contemporary rock is not my cup of tea... |
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JamiroFan2000
Correspondent
Joined: 21 Mar 2002
Posts: 2881
Location: The Jamiroquaized States Of America
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| Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 20:20 |
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| Zsoma wrote: |
| Funkiroquai wrote: |
| Zsoma wrote: |
| alyd wrote: |
Jay may still wear tracksuits but he's changed musically and creatively over that period and I think quite a lot of his fans should too. |
Strongly disagree - why would I need to change my taste in music? |
you say "why would I need", but it's happened, it's a fact.. |
No it hasn't happened yet, I dig their oldschool stuff, the disco funk of AFO & Dynamite too but contemporary rock is not my cup of tea... |
 Well, my cup of creative Earl Grey tea, for Jamiroquai, would to be exploring more of the 'dirty funk side', from 'Snooze You Lose To Hurtin', of Jamiroquai, maybe for the next album or two....now that would be awesome ! Cheers!
Sincerely,
JamiroFan2000
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Space Clav
Expert
Joined: 21 Nov 2005
Posts: 1732
Location: The Internet
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| Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 23:40 |
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| alyd wrote: |
Jay may still wear tracksuits but he's changed musically and creatively over that period and I think quite a lot of his fans should too. |
Such a silly thing to say. People like what they like. Some change their taste and some do not.
In 1976 I was 5 and I pestered my mum into buying me the Kiss album Rock And Roll Over. Kiss was THE BEST! But I also liked Abba, Elvis, The Beatles, Queen, Vivaldi, Bach and some funk, jazzfunk, soul and disco acts from my dad's collection. For being 5 I had a rather broad taste in music, and very sophisticated too if I may say so myself. The other kids at the day nursery were still listening to children's songs.
In 1983 when I was 12 I had turned into an avid supporter of heavy metal and said "I'll never ever gonna stop being a fan of Dio". Ronnie James Dio was KING! Well guess what? Three years later I didn't buy the new album and I thought Slayer would always be my favourite band. And in between that I discovered Yngwie Malmsteen and started playing the guitar myself.
I could still appreciate some of the stuff that I had previously liked. But my mind was pretty much closed when it came to consuming anything new. I was a (thrash/speed) metal head with a fetish for baroque music. Neo-classical metal guitarists, Slayer and Helloween were my house gods.
Then in 1990 Technotronic and Snap for some reason caught my attention. And I wasn't afraid to admit that I actually liked it... even though I was still a bit of a thrasher. In 1991 I discovered Kenny Kravitz. I begun to broaden my musical horizons once again, even including The Prodigy. I was slowly drifting away from the metal scene. Then a new bar/club opened in my town. This was in 1992. They were endorsed by Acid Jazz, the label. I quickly found new love for a kind of music I hadn't listened to since I was 5! Funk, jazzfunk, soul... and then I celebrated New Year´s 92/93 in London and discovered Jamiroquai. Since then I was hooked up!
Finally I was "home". Sure I can still appreciate good metal when I hear it. I still listen to The Beatles and Queen. And I'm most certainly still "hooked on Bach". But since 1992 I knew for sure that "my favourite music" is soulful music such as 70's jazzfunk, some mid to late 70's disco and of course early to mid 90's british acid jazz. Jamiroquai brought that back in me in 1992. Why should I change my taste in music? Old school Jamiroquai is and will always be my favourite band. This time I'm old enough to know it will last, when I was 12 and said the same about Dio I was just being naive.
I've already done my journey. I've changed musically back and forth and finally found my "home". A home that's lasted for the past 18 years. I'm a grown man, I know what I like.
I've done the rock thing. For me going from complex acid jazz/jazzfunk (whatever you wanna call it) isn't evolution, it's devolution. Rock is simpler. That doesn't mean that it's less of an art form though. It's just different. But it's certainly easier to play and to compose because it requires less technical skill but rather relies on "feeling". It's easier to play Chuck Berry than Dream Theater. It's easier to play Hurtin' than Whatever It Is, I Just Can't Stop. But if you lack the "feeling" you won't be able to play jack shit. Not very well anyway.
Maybe I'm just a nerd obsessed with details because I consider myself a musician too. But so be it. I can't help appreciating music I know takes skill AND feeling to compose and perform more than I appreciate music you can handle quite well without much know-how or hardly any practise at all.
Anyway, asking me to "move on" or "change musically" is just an insult. I'm as much of a fan as you are even if I do not approve of the change of genre we seem to be getting. Just because I want Jamiroquai to retain the Jamiroquai essence I'm not unworthy. I have the right to say what I feel. If you have a problem with that I think it's YOU that should move on. Because this forum is a place for those who care about Jamiroquai one way or another. And old school and new school fans alike should be able to share this place equally and discuss whatever we like and do not like. It's not a place for constant worship, praise and bootlicking. Criticism is healthy. It's what makes people grow. Just as long as it's done in a civil manner. Just saying things suck is hardly constructive. But when people like me try to convey our feelings and explain why we don't like a particular song/style it may actually serve as useful information for the band (if they read here that is).
I'm sure Jay and the boys just as most musicians first and most make music for themselves. And I respect if they want to take on a new approach. But keep in mind they're not hobby musicians mucking about just for fun. I'm just a simple hobbyist with no fans to think about. I can afford to make music for myself only. They must also cater for the needs of their fans. Their income depends on it. Hearing stuff through the grapevine can influence their decisions in the future. Maybe it's wishful thinking, but you never know. I do at least know, that if I do some work, of any kind, I want to know if I did it well. But I also want to know if someone is unhappy, and why, so I can improve myself next time.
As it seems like we actually have 3 types of fans. At least 3 cliques that prefer three flavours of Jamiroquai. The acid jazz types, the disco types and now the rock types. So I guess the ultimate Jamiroquai album, at least for us fans, would be an album ranging from acid jazz to disco to rock. Everybody happy. Jamiroquai too since sales would probably be great since nobody is leaving and new fans will discover the album. One can always dream, right? 
So, with all this rambling said... we've only heard 4 songs so far, and a rough cut of a song that most likely isn't on the album. I'm still pretty confident that there will be a little something for everyone on the album. Even for someone like me. And if I'm wrong I will just have to suck it up and handle my disappointment the best way I can while keeping an eye on the band and hoping for a change for the better in the future. There will always be gigs to attend. There I know I'll get what I want. At the gig at the Paleo Festival I could still see "my Jamiroquai" (well on YouTube anyway, lol). That gave a warm and pleasant feeling in my heart. I look forward to the next gig I can visit.
Ok, rant is over for this time I guess. I applaud those who had the patience to actually read it.
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alyd
Joined: 24 Apr 2005
Posts: 203
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| Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 02:10 |
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| Space Clav wrote: |
| Anyway, asking me to "move on" or "change musically" is just an insult. I'm as much of a fan as you are even if I do not approve of the change of genre we seem to be getting. Just because I want Jamiroquai to retain the Jamiroquai essence I'm not unworthy. I have the right to say what I feel. If you have a problem with that I think it's YOU that should move on. Because this forum is a place for those who care about Jamiroquai one way or another. And old school and new school fans alike should be able to share this place equally and discuss whatever we like and do not like. It's not a place for constant worship, praise and bootlicking. Criticism is healthy. It's what makes people grow. Just as long as it's done in a civil manner. Just saying things suck is hardly constructive. But when people like me try to convey our feelings and explain why we don't like a particular song/style it may actually serve as useful information for the band (if they read here that is). |
Why should the band care about the taste of an individual? They don't need permission to continue and develop and contrary to what you say their income does not depend on pandering to their fanbase.
Should those metal bands you liked all be playing funk for you now? No, as their income doesn't depend on pleasing certain individuals who liked them in the past any more than Jamiroquai's does.
Jamiroquai have the right to play what they want, if some of their fans dislike it that's too bad but they don't need to take notice of it, they'll play to people who want to hear it, be they long established fans or people who've never heard anything from them before Rock Dust Light Star. |
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Gonza-Arg
Joined: 27 Mar 2005
Posts: 1680
Location: Argentina
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| Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 02:27 |
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| alyd wrote: |
| Why should the band care about the taste of an individual? (...) Should those metal bands you liked all be playing funk for you now? No... |
he didn't stop listening to them because those bands changed their style, he changed his musical taste (that's what I understood). He ("Space Clav") is not saying Jmq should change their style because he likes different music now, he's saying they should return to their original sound.
I don't know if you understand, but I'm trying to "correct" your "misinterpretation" (if I'm allowed to do so ) |
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alyd
Joined: 24 Apr 2005
Posts: 203
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| Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 03:28 |
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Yeah but he's saying Jamiroquai's income depends on pleasing fans and his displeasure with the current material counts for that reason; "it may actually serve as useful information for the band (if they read here that is)."
I only mentioned Space Clav's previous bands as they were detailed in the first place and demonstrate how bands have ever changing fanbases - it's only when nobody likes the new stuff that they need to take note if commercial success is a goal as well as creative development |
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Space Clav
Expert
Joined: 21 Nov 2005
Posts: 1732
Location: The Internet
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| Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 08:08 |
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| alyd wrote: |
Should those metal bands you liked all be playing funk for you now? |
 are you being serious? Just like Gonza said. NO, because THEY didn't change, I did. They didn't let me down.
| alyd wrote: |
Yeah but he's saying Jamiroquai's income depends on pleasing fans and his displeasure with the current material counts for that reason; |
YES, that's what I'm saying! Are you daft or just a troll? Of course their income depends on pleasing the fans. All kinds of business depend on happy clients. You mess things up it's gonna hurt your wallet, one way or another.
| alyd wrote: |
Why should the band care about the taste of an individual? |
Because their whole fanbase is made up of individuals. What are you? The Borg? The collective hive mind? Do you wake up chanting "It's Jamiroquai so we must like it whether we like it or not. Resistance is futile!"?
Fanbases change, you win some you lose some. But if you make too many mistakes you fail and lose too many while gaining too few.
I'm just saying that I, as a single voice, won't matter. But I'm not alone. I actually see more people being sceptical about the new songs than people praising them. And quite frankly, even among those who love this new stuff I think a majority would prefer the older style.
What do YOU think a majority of the fans would want (if their individual opinions did count) from Jamiroquai? WYGL and Little L à la Paleo or Blue Skies and Hurtin'? What would you prefer yourself?
| alyd wrote: |
Jamiroquai have the right to play what they want, |
Yes they do. And I respect their choice if rock is what they wanna do. But that doesn't mean I or anybody else in favour of their original style has to like it. And if we don't like it we have every right in the world to voice our opinion no matter if it counts or not.
This place is for fans. And we're still fans even though we're not loving the new material. We're fans of their older material. It still counts as being fans. There are The Beatles fans of their older material and fans of their newer psychedelic material. Some like both eras. All of these people are fans.
| alyd wrote: |
if some of their fans dislike it that's too bad but they don't need to take notice of it, |
On the contrary. If they change too much the equation "win some lose some" could end up being negative. If sales are poor they will notice. If less people visit the gigs they will notice. Money talks. When money doesn't keep coming in like it used to and you get more royalties from back catalogue than current release you will most likely start to think "where did we go wrong?". And maybe, just maybe try to correct it.
I think all types of fans are worth equally much. But, long established fans have already proved that they are loyal. With new fans you don't know. Some may not even be fans but rather casual supporters. You know the musical all eaters who like a song here and a song there from various artists. Anything they fancy at the moment. In the past this category bought a single or two and then moved on. These days I guess they just download the songs they fancy at the moment. Be it through iTunes or from some illegal file sharing site. Is that kind of "fan" an artist wants? By all means, put a wet finger in the air and try to catch the flavour of the day. Change style to go with the flow and attract those random consumers. But if you want a loyal and steadily growing fanbase you must keep the essence of what once made you into what you are.
Just look at Iron Maiden. They have the most loyal fans. Their fanbase is steadily growing. New generations of fans find Iron Maiden. They always fill huge arenas. They even have to come back for extra dates. What is their recipe? They kept the Iron Maiden essence. They did still change some and experiment some... became even more pompous. But the essence is still very much intact. I guess the fans have to thank Steve Harris for that.
With Virtual Insanity Jamiroquai "made it" in the US. On a commercial level that is. With Virtual insanity they suddenly had lots of new "fans" from all over the world. Where are they now? They probably moved on. We've all read random comments on different internet pages "Jamiroquai? The guy in the hat? Oh yeah, I remember him. I loved Virtual Insanity. Whatever happened to him?"
Virtual Insanity was a massive hit. But for these people it was just that. A hit single. Nothing more. They consumed it and moved on to whatever topping the charts a few months later. They couldn't appreciate or even smell the essence of Jamiroquai. They only bothered to scratch the surface. But did they peel the onion that Jamiroquai is/was? No.
A band/artist is nothing without the fans. That's why I'm saying that being a musician by trade is a fine balance act. It's a slippery slope. While you must play what YOU want you must also please the fans one way or another. Or else it won't last in the long run.
I guess you're a real fan. Because you are here. The random consumers are not here. They probably don't even know about this place. Or Funkin for what matter. I don't think that category of "fans" even bother to visit the official site.
We're here because we love the band, for good and for worse. We take things more seriously than they actually are. For us Jamiroquai isn't just music. It's a way of life. That's why we care enough to go head to head discussing the bands new direction. We see things differently and have a different taste but we can always agree on something. We have a mutual respect and love for Jamiroquai. You have "your Jamiroquai". I have mine. And I just hope the new record has songs that will keep it "our Jamiroquai".
I find it hard to believe that Jay, at age 40, suddenly had an epiphany thinking "who am I kidding? Im no funker or jazzer, I'm a ROCKER!". He's probably had a soft spot for some rock (like Led Zep) since a young lad. But judging from what we know about Jay and his taste in music jazz and funk to him is what corn is to a chubby girl from the Midwest US. It was his staple food. He lived and breathed it. So I really don't think he has changed his taste in music, he's just exploring another side of himself. That's why I hope the album will still contain a few tidbits for those of us who are still craving for that special special Jamirovibe, the essence that made us discover and fall in love with the band.
On November 1st we'll know.
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alyd
Joined: 24 Apr 2005
Posts: 203
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| Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 08:31 |
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That all falls within what I said in my previous post - you're still saying a band will suffer if die-hards walk away and I've yet to see any evidence of that - I've no idea how many fans are actually going to not buy the record as a result of their views on the new stuff so it may make no difference at all.
Because some fans care they think that should mean it's the logical majority view, not just among fans, but the general listening public. I think that's the mistake here, I just see no proof that pissing off the old fans is going to matter to them financially or otherwise.
It's a talking point for sure but we've seen sales dip before when the music was just what the fans wanted - things are rarely as simple as they seem to those with a passionate view. |
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Sandriche
Officer & Jamily Coach
Joined: 07 Oct 2005
Posts: 5564
Location: Austraria
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| Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 12:14 |
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hi jonas! 
good to see you and your posts around  
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| I think all types of fans are worth equally much. |
I totally agree with you!
And I would love to see everything going back to " normal". At the moment the situation seems to be the following. If you like the new stuff...some " old school lovers" tell you you have no taste in music... some of the " new age" fans insult the "old school ones" of not being open. and so on.
I always loved the jamiroquai community as I thought it was a very respectful, sensitive and friendly bunch of people.
I am missing the respect lately.The love and respect between the people that I always thought made these communities here very special. Everybody should have the right to express their expinion without insulting others.
And I hope emotions will settle down once the album is out. Be an example with your posts we are all in the same boat
 
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teecheedeedee
Joined: 16 Dec 2006
Posts: 219
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
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| Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 13:50 |
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To be honest, I think this thread is really valuable. It's an incredibly important and interesting discussion, and I've found recent topics to be a little stale (no one's fault). I think this discussion should stay open as long as it needs to. The popularity of this thread shows that many fans have something to say.
Here people can discuss an issue which has often been avoided. After all, life is much more interesting with healthy debate. As long as people stay respectful and argue intelligently, I think this is great.
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Space Clav
Expert
Joined: 21 Nov 2005
Posts: 1732
Location: The Internet
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| Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 13:57 |
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| alyd wrote: |
| you're still saying a band will suffer if die-hards walk away and I've yet to see any evidence of that - I've no idea how many fans are actually going to not buy the record as a result of their views on the new stuff so it may make no difference at all. |
I guess it all depends how large the core of die-hards are. Are they a minority or a majority? Most likely a minority, but is it still large enough to be noticed if they "left"? I guess there are some hardcore acid jazz nutters that will leave. Quite frankly though, I think those already left. Possibly popping out of the woodwork at every album release praying for a return to the acid jazz roots.
If there are enough good songs on the album I will buy the CD. If there are just one or two I'll buy the songs off iTunes. I'll buy the singles if the B-sides are good, even if the A-sides aren't (according to my taste of course). And with good songs I don't necessarily mean acid jazz, even though that's what I'd really want. I can appreciate good music and if the songs speak to me and touch me it really doesn't matter what kind of style it is. So I'm not really leaving. But I still have the right to be disappointed if it turns out I wanted more than I was given. I'll just let my wallet do the talking as far as buying music goes.
| alyd wrote: |
Because some fans care they think that should mean it's the logical majority view, not just among fans, but the general listening public. I think that's the mistake here, I just see no proof that pissing off the old fans is going to matter to them financially or otherwise. |
Well, that depends on the numbers doesn't it. We can't calculate the amount of old school fans based on the active membership here. I'm willing to bet there are way more old school fans out there than it is here. People who aren't here for reasons such as "they're not into the Internet" (yeah, it's hard to believe those people exist isn't it? lol) or they have a language barrier. Just imagine how many Japanese fans there are. How many of them are here... one?
| alyd wrote: |
It's a talking point for sure but we've seen sales dip before when the music was just what the fans wanted - things are rarely as simple as they seem to those with a passionate view. |
It is a talking point for sure. And we should be able to discuss it as long as we're being civil towards each other. No need to disrespect other fans or the band. Jamiroquai has their reasons to explore uncharted territory and as a musician I respect that. As a fan of the old school I'm having more trouble handling this of course. It's not easy to fight feelings of disappointment no matter what you're disappointed about.
I don't think earlier sales dips when the music was just what the fans wanted were because of real fans leaving. It think it was random consumers that left when the novelty of the original Jamiroquai sound had worn off. The same kind of people that first brought Britney Spears to the top of the charts and then turned their back on her and then brought Christina Aquilera to the top of the charts. Probably the same kind of people that are lining Lady Gagas pockets with cash as we speak. I'm not saying it was the very same people. Just the same kind of random music consumers that consume the flavour of the day and then move on.
I'm still a firm supporter of the idea that consistency builds a solid fan base. You may not sell as much during certain periods. But you wouldn't have to have sleepless nights over what to produce next to please the random consumer.
McDonalds know what their customers want. That's why they have no need to experiment with exotic asian food to attract a new clientele.
I'm not trying to compare Jamiroquai with McDonalds. That would be the ultimate insult towards the band. They're more like a niche restaurant to me. But they're also big business. This nobody can deny.
And while they must have artistic freedom in order to survive as musicians they must also cater to the needs of the fans in order to survive as businessmen. If you think Jamiroquai fans will eat anything being served just because it's Jay & co tending your table you're gravely mistaken. How well do you think Rock Dust Light Star would sell if it turned out to be an accordion polka album? I know I'm using extremes to prove my point. But to some fans rock is probably just as bad as accordion polka music.
If you're not consistent and change colours one time too many the market will consider you unreliable. And that's when the worst case scenario can occur. You have no fanbase left. Suddenly all you can do is to try to please the erratic minds of random music consumers. I don't think any band would want to find themselves in that situation.
I don't think Jamiroquai will ever face that situation though. Because they're high class musicians and not a plastic studio product. Even if what they release may not be my favourite cup of tea I can still appreciate good craftmanship when I see it. If it touches me I'll buy it. But with the price paid also comes the right to wish for more. It's as simple as that.
Maybe Jamiroquai will succeed in making a Metallica. Change the sound aggressively, lose the hardcore fans but gain hundreds of thousands more thus expanding the fanbase massively. If they do, fair play to them. Good business, especially if what they changed for is what they really wanna play these days. Hats off! They'd deserve the success, but I would mourn the way too early demise of "my Jamiroquai".
However, we've only heard a third of the coming album. I'm not going to count the chickens before they're hatched. On November 1st we'll know exactly how good or bad each and everyone of us will think the album is.
P.S. Hi Sandriche. Good to be back. Even though I'm a bit disappointed at the moment it's good fun to see things moving around here again.
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alyd
Joined: 24 Apr 2005
Posts: 203
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| Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 19:19 |
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| Space Clav wrote: |
| I don't think earlier sales dips when the music was just what the fans wanted were because of real fans leaving. It think it was random consumers that left when the novelty of the original Jamiroquai sound had worn off. The same kind of people that first brought Britney Spears to the top of the charts and then turned their back on her and then brought Christina Aquilera to the top of the charts. Probably the same kind of people that are lining Lady Gagas pockets with cash as we speak. I'm not saying it was the very same people. Just the same kind of random music consumers that consume the flavour of the day and then move on. |
This is my point but you shoot yours in the foot with the McDonalds thing - even though you backpedalled that is actually the problem with what you're saying; you want your Jamiroquai McSound™ same as it ever was. McDonalds takings are at an all time low right now because they have not moved with the times and just produce the same old junk.
The problem for me is I actually don't think they've evolved enough for fear of what you're saying - people walking away in numbers that matter. I think Jay is still doing essentially the same thing he was twenty years ago (differences only really apparent to big fans) and whilst I'll be glad to listen to RDLS there's a part of me that can see a guy who should be ditching the uniform he wears and the conventions of his sound.
You joked about an 'accordion polka album' but I'd be delighted if that's what he really wanted and let's not forget the accordion on the same episode of Jools Holland as him with Mama Rosin. I'd just like to see the fire within him again, good though I think Jamiroquai have always been I think it's clear to those of us that know him best that his heart is not 100% in it anymore.
I think he wants to grow up a bit and be taken more seriously as a musician but then you jeopardise your contract which wants you to play in the same pen as Gaga etc and so we're back to where we began on this discussion. |
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mr.az
Joined: 01 Sep 2005
Posts: 2421
Location: rallying
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| Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 21:44 |
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i am with you alyd, you are right about what u point
also, the worst thing about the new release is the bad marketing
i mean, when the songs leaked, no one know if it was official 
followed by the lowest quaility footage and music videos 
then you can't deny this IS what is so wrong. 
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iranterres
Joined: 02 Apr 2008
Posts: 422
Location: Brasil
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| Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 23:49 |
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All I can tell you is that the situation is very very bad for them right now due poor marketing, we're a month within the album launch and we have been facing some amateurish marketing policy... But is this policy from the band or the label?
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