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danni
Joined: 04 Nov 2006
Posts: 75
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 Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 08:05 |
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| CosmicMouse wrote: |
| Obviously this is not a serious suggestion! She is a vegan and it wouldn't make any difference for a vegan if you exploit cows, rats or dogs. |
thanks for pointin out the article..again the media manipulate the truth when claiming:
"The outspoken vegan campaigner claims eating meat and dairy is destroying the Earth and insists the milk of rats, cats and dogs would be a more eco-friendly dietary choice." |
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ophone
Joined: 31 May 2005
Posts: 2191
Location: Lëtzebuerg
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 12:28 |
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| Quote: |
| Whereas lots of people would never ever consider eating dogs, cats and horses, they enjoy having pigs, cows and rabbits for dinner. |
I never ate dog or cat, but horse, and it's yummee!
| Quote: |
| but it is just remarkable how caring they can be for living beings, no matter how tiny they are. In our house no spider or midge will be squashed on purpose - it became a little sport to catch and carry them out. |
I do just the same, first of all because spiders keep away all kinds of flies, second why should I kill animals I won't eat?
I see more and more why I should at least live as vegetarian, even if it will be very hard to become one.
For me food in general is murder. Plants are living creatures too, we eat the whole plant or it's organs with which it wants to reproduce. But the fact that the breeding of meat produces that much CO2 and methane makes me think.
But shall I tell you the main reason of global warming: Human overpopulation on Earth. Yes, we should make less children, especially in "Third" World countries where ressources are already low on food and water. I can't understand the Pope for instance, who is against the use of condoms.
However, we people in the "First" world should learn to produce less CO2, especially in the US! (I always wonder why the US produce way more CO2 than Europe, even that there are 100 million people less living in the US than in the European Union.) And to stop to eat meat seems to be one of the solutions. (And of course the American using cars with European or Japanese environemental standards. Time to learn to drive smaller cars and diesel engines, with particle filters of course, mates!)
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CosmicBear
Officer - not married to CosmicMouse
Joined: 10 Feb 2002
Posts: 1063
Location: London, UK
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 13:07 |
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| ophone wrote: |
| I see more and more why I should at least live as vegetarian, even if it will be very hard to become one. |
you might actually be surprised. i did the step towards vegetarian a while back, after being blackmailed and threatend by mouse... JUST KIDDING!!! i did listen to her arguments and did a lot of research by myself and read the book she recommended and came to the decision that i want to give it at least a try. i did have a few "exceptions" where i did eat meat but now have been completely vegetarian for quite some time now. a few weeks back i was out with friends and we ended up in a fast food restaurant where they accidently served me pizza with chicken on it. first of all i could taste it right away and i really didn't like the texture of the meat in my mouth.
there are plenty of "substitutes" that taste and feel like meat then you eat them, quorn for example. i used this a lot in the beginning, mainly because of eating habits but after a while i actually realised that i don't really like the "feel" of it anymore and only use it in a few dishes like chilli ven carne.
the biggest thing for me was to make sure that i don't turn into a "pudding vegetarian", meaning just leaving meat out of my diet but continue to eat the same otherwise or even replacing it with worse stuff, but to turn to a wholegrain diet. i've invested in two vegetarian and vegan cookbooks and really enjoy discovering new stuff and create meals.
i don't know if i will be able to take the step towards a complete vegan diet to be honest though. i am trying to leave animal products out of my diet as much as possible, but i do like cheese and eggs. i have tried some of the vegan products out on the market and to be honest, they do taste different and sometimes just weird. i had a vegan muffin a while back and i was actually thinking that this thing should be used to scrub your dishes or remove the paint from a car but NOT as food.  also i tried vegan bread the other day and found it way too sweet in taste (for whatever reasons) but i am cutting down on animal products in general.
in general i am really watching what i am eating and make sure that i produce as much food as possible myself. i have started to bake my own bread for example (because i couldn't find decent bread here in the UK  ) and "experiement" with homemade breadspreads.
a couple fo times i had other people tell me that it would be too time consuming to make stuff yourself, but i like to disagree. just think about how much time we spend in front of the telly or on the internet. the food in the supermarket is called CONVENIENT FOOD for a reason  because it's just convenient.
i'm at work at the moment and a bit in a hurry, but if you have more questions or worries about giving the whole vegetarian diet a test, just gimme a shout |
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ophone
Joined: 31 May 2005
Posts: 2191
Location: Lëtzebuerg
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 13:26 |
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| CosmicBear wrote: |
i have started to bake my own bread for example (because i couldn't find decent bread here in the UK ) and "experiement" with homemade breadspreads.
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You are from Germany, right? Well German (and Alsatian, who are in some way German too) bakers are maybe the best bakers in the world! They make the tastiest bread and the best cakes and pies! (OK, I have to admit that the French, Belgians and Luxembourgish aren't bad aswell, if you take out the industrial made baguettes.)
There is, as far as I know, no other country where whole wheat bread tastes that good!
[I can remember when I was with some friends and my sister in Northern America, we were looking for European bread, because American bread is more like brioche (Einback) and doesn't harmonise with things like butter, margarine, jam or ham! Finally we found a traditional French style bakery in Montréal, you can't imagine how happy we were!]
| CosmicBear wrote: |
| but if you have more questions or worries about giving the whole vegetarian diet a test, just gimme a shout |
Yes, I live for 2 months at my parents and after that I'll move out again, this would be the perfect time to start becoming a vegetarian. Can you recommend me some vegetarian cooking books? (In German please, I'm not accustomed to English cooking vocabulary.)
Thank you in advance!
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CosmicBear
Officer - not married to CosmicMouse
Joined: 10 Feb 2002
Posts: 1063
Location: London, UK
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 13:39 |
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yes, i am german, so we can communicate in german. as for cook books, mouse is probably the one to ask as i have only access to english books here in the UK
like i said, just gimme a shout and i might be able to give you a few clues |
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CosmicMouse
Jamirotalk mum
Joined: 10 Feb 2002
Posts: 4821
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 15:50 |
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 what?... ophone are you serious? I'd never expected that you would try the vegetarian way... I am very happy to read this, although I want to point out again that it was absolutley not my intention to convince you to this step. Just wanted to give some input, to get straight some facts, spread some detailed information which are not very known by the majority... with the hope to sensitize some readers.
I'd be very happy to help you with any question you have. Bear is right, I have tons of vegetarian books, but to be honest I only rarely look into them because my prefered tactic is "trail and error" while cooking. 
Yeah, I create a lot of own things, depending on what is in my fridge.
I can give you some hints - maybe better via PMs and in german then.
Don't hesitate to ask me.
A general thing I want to say:
I was discussing with my hubby the other day this whole thing because sometimes I get very emotional when I feel misunderstood about my choice. Mainly because all my reasons are well-meant and only good intentions (health, environment, animal rights) - so I sometimes tend to be disappointed when I don't get appreciation from everyone.
I said: "Look, I only want to give people information about their health, I don't want to support cruelty towards animals and ecological rape - only good things actually worth honouring motives. Why do I get back so much incomprehension and unsympathetic comments then? I don't force anyone to go vegetarian, I just want to provide information."
He said something really important then to me:
"Meike, they react like this because for them your information is a try to take away something from them. It seems as if you want to "steal" from them e.g. things they used to like, a bit of their tradition, the taste they have when consuming meat. You take away something from them, that's what makes them opposing.
Maybe you can make them see that it is not a loss to give up meat but a gain. With the decision to go vegetarian you don't have to just give up something, you also gain some things: peace of mind, consciousness, awareness, an abundance of new dishes, better health, a better feeling not to support a lot of bad things in the world, and so on... it is just a question of the perspective."
Well said, Miran!
Mouse
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deesh
Joined: 23 Feb 2002
Posts: 2717
Location: +001
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 16:01 |
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Hi Bear 
Ophone or anyone wanting to try going vegetarian or just exploring it - remember that it is a process. You don't have to quit everything just at once. Just try one thing one month and gradually decrease or cut stuff out. Like I said, I am having a tough time with chicken and turkey. I got frustrated, so instead I cut back on it, but have started to eat organic eggs and brown rice (not a comparison, but I'm trying in my own little way - remember for me it is health first, environment/cruelty second ). I will do turkey after Thanksgiving tomorrow and chicken perhaps after Christmas.
Good Luck!
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CosmicMouse
Jamirotalk mum
Joined: 10 Feb 2002
Posts: 4821
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 16:16 |
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Ophone, we have a topic with vegetarian recipes here, do you know this one?
 Vegetarian Recipes   
On page 2 I give some general tipps about vegetarian cooking. This might be helpful for you.
ADDED:
http://www.vegetarische-rezepte.com/
Vegetarian recipes in german language. 
Mouse
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I'm walking on air and every cloud is Cloud 9. ~ |
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ophone
Joined: 31 May 2005
Posts: 2191
Location: Lëtzebuerg
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 20:08 |
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| deesh wrote: |
| Ophone or anyone wanting to try going vegetarian or just exploring it - remember that it is a process. You don't have to quit everything just at once. |
That's my intention. As soon as I move out from here I'll start to change my diet to vegetarian, except on Sunday, where I'll eat at my mum's.
And I think that's the right way. My parents, especially my dad who was born in 1946 one year after the war ended, told me when they were kids they only got meat on Sunday and on festive occasions, because meat used to be quite expensive compared to the other food.
When I was in Première (high school graduation class), our history teacher told us that during German occupation in WWII the average Luxembourger was healthier.
Yes, you read right! OK, many died during war, whether on the field or in concentration camps. Hitler and nazis were (and still are) one of the worst things that ever happened to the human kind.
But because butter was replaced by margarine, coffee by some grain surrogate without cafeine and the fact that meat was very rarely on the menu, death by heart stroke was nearly inexistent.
Such a diet is the right balance I guess. Even if I won't quit meat at 100% I'll do my contribution against global warming. Maybe I'll experience what Bear has experienced, getting slowly disgusted by meat by beginning to dislike the texture of meat (or meat surrogates).
As you can see, I'm not lowering considerably my meat consumption because I think animals are cute, I'm doing it because I'm frightened by global warming and the fact that I could lose some weight plays also a certain role in it.
Finally, thank you all for your suggestions, this "nearly" vegetarian life style is my new year's resolution, I'll even try to replace the most of the cow milk I consume by soy milk, although soy milk doesn't taste in coffee, tea or coffee surrogate.
The thing is I live since October until December/January at my parents' place. It's my mum who mainly decides what food is bought. I have to say that she is an absolute meat lover. Same for my girlfriend, she likes meat too, and after I told her I want to eat much less meat than I used to she didn't take me seriously. And after ten minutes she asked when we're going to eat our next horse steak (which is kind of a speciality here in the country). 
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CosmicMouse
Jamirotalk mum
Joined: 10 Feb 2002
Posts: 4821
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 20:30 |
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| ophone wrote: |
although soy milk doesn't taste in coffee.
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I thought that too.. but I found out that it depends on the brand you take. Some don't taste at all and some do. The best I found was a soy coffee creamer, I like this one very much - but maybe for you it is another one. Just don't give up too fast and try different sorts.
The bad thing is that this coffee creamer is not available anywhere near my place, so I have to order it online. But I keep bothering the different seller in the health-food-shop around (Reformhaus?) and maybe this way they will sooner or later start selling it.
Ophone, this is the step into the right direction, definitely!!
I have read that if everyone in the world would reduce his meat consumption about 10% we would (theoretically) have enough cultivation area to grow enough plant food for 225 Million people!
Meat at just one day per week is a great improvement for your health as well!
Mouse
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I'm walking on air and every cloud is Cloud 9. ~ |
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Cosmic Noe
Joined: 03 Nov 2007
Posts: 101
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 23:32 |
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If we talk about cruelty towards animals, I totally agree with Mouse's point of view. But where's the limit? If I eat an egg, should I think it's an unborn chicken? That's why I asked what kind of vegetarian are you.
If you've made the choice not to eat meat anymore, it's one choice in 10000 million that you take in your life. From my point of view, it has nothing to do with stopping contamination or stopping comercial activity with animals. To do that, I'll totally forbid dog and horses shows, races (with all kind of animals) aquariums, zoo, and plenty of other things. But again, that's flying to high.
Kisses to all
Noe
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ophone
Joined: 31 May 2005
Posts: 2191
Location: Lëtzebuerg
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| Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 00:59 |
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| Cosmic Noe wrote: |
| But where's the limit? If I eat an egg, should I think it's an unborn chicken? |
This is a bad example. Eggs only carry chicken (or any other animal, also talking of ovula) if the egg has been fertilized by a rooster. Most of the time a chicken who lays an egg is doing it like a woman having her menstruation, that's why I call sometimes chicken eggs "Héngerperiod" (Chicken menstruation).
Talking of cow milk, which is meant for the cow's calf but taken by humans, would have been a better example.
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CosmicMouse
Jamirotalk mum
Joined: 10 Feb 2002
Posts: 4821
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 07:32 |
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| Cosmic Noe wrote: |
| But where's the limit? If I eat an egg, should I think it's an unborn chicken? |
No, Noe.. that's not the reason for vegans to boycott the egg-industry.
The chickens are treated as production units. Chickens raised for eggs are crammed into cages so small they can’t even spread a single wing and are starved for weeks to shock their bodies into another laying cycle.
By taking away their eggs they have to lay new ones because of their instinct - their aim is to gather a population/family and they cannot stop laying eggs until they have 3 or 4 baby chicks. So, normally a chick would only lay 5 or 6 eggs in a year if nobody would take away them. Instead they are forced to be part of a mass-production which makes their bones very weak (the chalk is needed for the egg shells), most of them cannot stand on their (often broken) legs.
But for me, the most cruel thing is this:
You know, only female chicks can lay eggs, so what to do with the other 50% male chickens? You might not believe it, but it is the truth: Those 50% are killed because they have no use for it. This species is not growing fast enough to produce chicken meat, so they just divide them into two groups - male and female. All male chicks will be killed! They are gased, asphyxiate in big plastic sacks or shredded! Can you imagine that?
I copy some facts from goveg.com:
| Quote: |
Egg Facts
- Chickens’ eggs are the byproduct of a chicken’s “menstrual” cycle. If fertilized, they would produce baby chicks.
- Male chicks are worthless to the egg industry, so every year millions of them are tossed into trash bags to suffocate or are thrown alive into high-speed grinders called “macerators.”
- Egg-laying hens are all eventually slaughtered for their flesh. Their weak and emaciated bodies are made into soup or dog and cat food, or they are fed back to other chickens.
- “Free-range” eggs are a marketing ploy—the free-range label is not subject to any USDA regulations, so “free-range” chickens endure miserable conditions, just as all animals used for food do. |
More information about the egg-industry here:
http://www.goveg.com/factoryFarming_chickens_egg.asp
http://www.eggindustry.com/
Male chicks - worthless for the eggindustry
Debeaking
In order to keep the hens from pecking one another to death out of frustration in the crowded cages, each chick has a large portion of her sensitive beak sliced off with a burning-hot blade. She is not given any pain relief, and many birds are not able to eat because of the pain and die from dehydration and a weakened immune system.
pics taken from http://www.goveg.com/photos.asp
"If you are going to eat eggs, then it is certainly preferable to get them from hens who have been allowed a cage-free life, and fed organically. But it is important to remember that each such egg still contains about 1.5 grams of saturated fat and 215 milligrams of cholesterol. This is more - in a single egg - than two-thirds of the Daily Value for cholesterol. And many scientists believe the Daily Value for cholesterol has been set far higher than optimum for human health as a result of political pressure from the egg industry."
source: John Robbins - Foodrevolution
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CosmicMouse
Jamirotalk mum
Joined: 10 Feb 2002
Posts: 4821
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 09:57 |
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| Cosmic Noe wrote: |
If you've made the choice not to eat meat anymore, it's one choice in 10000 million that you take in your life. From my point of view, it has nothing to do with stopping contamination or stopping comercial activity with animals. To do that, I'll totally forbid dog and horses shows, races (with all kind of animals) aquariums, zoo, and plenty of other things. But again, that's flying to high. |
You mean it doesn't have an effect? You underrate the power of the individuals!
Look, the average vegetarian saves the lives of approximately 95 animals each year. That adds up to thousands during a lifetime. Every time we eat, we are making a powerful choice that has profound consequences on the lives of animals. At each meal, we make a decision between supporting cruelty or living compassionately.
I mean, people who have contact to me get to know my attitude and some start thinking. For example: Bear has given up meat as well, after he read the book I recommended. And he has an influence too. He told me that he was going regularily to a foodshop and having a sandwich for lunch. As they had a lot of meat sandwiches but only one vegetarian sandwich he just ate the same each time he was going there. One day he asked the lady, if she might put something else on the sandwich - she did and after a while he was very suprised to see that she upgraded her offer of different vegetarian dishes. She was sensitised about vegetarian customers and now you can choose from a big list of vegetarian stuff. Other customers tried that vegetarian food and they were absolutely satisfied. People started to talk about vegetarian food and the circumstances. The ball has started rolling...
Another example: My son in school is often asked by his schoolmates why he is not eating meat. He is 8 years and obviously he cannot really bring up all those information I can give you. But he speaks his mind, he tells that he loves all animals, that animals are his friends and he doesn't want to eat their dead bodies. I am sure this makes his friends think. They might not become vegetarians, but at least they start thinking. When they are old enough they might start searching for information themselves.
Here in Europe there is a big trend to consume more and more organic food and to buy more products from businisses who care about the environment. This trend is called LOHAS. (Lohas - Lifestyle of Health and Sustainability.) Experts say this is going to be big trend for the future.
Vegetarianism is one aspect of this lifestyle. The number of vegetarians is raising as well.
You have to start somewhere if you want to make a change. Each little step, no matter how tiny it is, into the right direction is way better than running in big steps into the wrong direction.
Mouse
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I'm walking on air and every cloud is Cloud 9. ~ |
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CosmicBear
Officer - not married to CosmicMouse
Joined: 10 Feb 2002
Posts: 1063
Location: London, UK
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| Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 10:46 |
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| CosmicMouse wrote: |
| I mean, people who have contact to me get to know my attitude and some start thinking. For example: Bear has given up meat as well, after he read the book I recommended. And he has an influence too. He told me that he was going regularily to a foodshop and having a sandwich for lunch. As they had a lot of meat sandwiches but only one vegetarian sandwich he just ate the same each time he was going there. One day he asked the lady, if she might put something else on the sandwich - she did and after a while he was very suprised to see that she upgraded her offer of different vegetarian dishes. She was sensitised about vegetarian customers and now you can choose from a big list of vegetarian stuff. Other customers tried that vegetarian food and they were absolutely satisfied. People started to talk about vegetarian food and the circumstances. The ball has started rolling... |
and it keeps rolling and rolling and rolling...
what mouse wrote here is true. over the last few weeks i have become really good friend with the lady who runs the bistro where i work. we met up a few times outside of work hours and talked about her business in general. she has - with my influence - now done a few changes to her menu. one big thing is that she's buying all her ingrediance from local farmers instead of the supermarket. she has raised her prices by about 10% to compensate for the higher prices. i designed a flyer and a poster for her to inform her customers about the reason of the price change and guess what: not one person has complained about the price. she's also switched pretty much everything to wholegrain products. so it's not only a question about vegetarianism but about healthy eating in general.
when i was still house sharing and started to change my diet i had a discussion with one of my housemates. he was very interested in what i was cooking and i told him that i was making chilli ven carne with minced quorn instead of minced beef. i told him that i was quite sure that he wouldn't be able to taste the difference as the flavour in chilli doesn't come from the meat but from the herbs and spices used in it. i had him try it and he liked it. the next day he told me that he went to the local supermarket and checked out the price of minced quorn and that it was £1 more expensive than the cheap minced beef. my reply was that even when i was eating meat i would always go for the more expensive organic meat or would buy it at a local butcher who didn't use "factory" meat, so the price difference wasn't true in my case. i also told him some of the reasons why i decided to stop eating meat. he wouldn't accept them or basically say that they are not true (global warming because of meat production). in the end i got so frustrated that i just said to him "yes, my chilli ven carne costs £1 more than your chilli con carne but at least nothing was killed for my dinner" and then walked out of the kitchen.
| Cosmic Noe wrote: |
| If you've made the choice not to eat meat anymore, it's one choice in 10000 million that you take in your life. From my point of view, it has nothing to do with stopping contamination or stopping comercial activity with animals. To do that, I'll totally forbid dog and horses shows, races (with all kind of animals) aquariums, zoo, and plenty of other things. |
i have been refusing to go to zoos, aquariums and all those things for years now for the exact same reasons. i always felt sorry for the animals in there. zoos always claim that they re-create the natural invironment for the animals, but honestly, how many old tired have you seen swinging from trees in africa lately for some monkeys to play on?
our company had a day out to a horse race a little while back and i refused to go. i told them my reasons and that i don't want to support something like this and i got a lot of hassle from people here at work for it. they said that it wouldn't make a difference if i come or not as the race is going to happen anyway. i just said to them that this might be the case, but if no one would go, those races wouldn't be happening. |
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