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Dye
Correspondent & Expert
Joined: 16 Nov 2003
Posts: 5146
Location: Planet Home; Buenos Aires, Argentina
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 Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 12:27 |
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I get that some people don't like Automaton, and that's completely fine. I'm trying to understand why.
Personally, I don't see that much of a departure from what they've done before. Lots of synths, strings, backing singers and disco touches were all over Cosmic Girl 21 years ago too, and I wasn't around but I doubt there was this kind of disparity of opinions between that one and let's say Revolution 1993. So that's not a compelling argument against this album.
I don't think the music has changed all that much. People have. |
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Dani
Joined: 25 Jan 2017
Posts: 28
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| Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 13:29 |
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You're probably right, Diego.
There is some irony in the fact that a fan website is dominated by negativity at times, but I suppose it is also understandable as we are the most demanding supporters of the band.
After initial reservations I am enjoying the album a lot and I am very happy indeed to have them back. I love Shake It On and I really like Cloud 9, Summer Girl, Superfresh, Vitamin...The concept of Automaton is great and the video is terrific. The promotion of the album is fantastic. Jay is in a great mood. Let's enjoy this while it lasts.
Looking forward to seeing them in London and Barcelona! |
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jamirokaki
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Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Posts: 3472
Location: basque country
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| Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 13:49 |
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in my case, i'm not a kind of fan who wants them to go back to the roots (i would love that but i don't expect that, and i don't ask them to), i like how they evolve and personally i don't care if they do funk, disco, electronic, reggae, pop or rock. I dig a lot of kinds of musics. I only want to get good music. I can't explain what is good music in terms of structures, melodies or chords, but i can feel when i think any music is good or not (of course this is subjetive)
As for this last album, wich i habe bought and listened to around 10 times now i just feel the songs has lost that thing jamiroquai used to have. It's true that they still sound the same, wathever the style is (i mean they sound jamiroquai, not "all the songs sound the same as some people claim).
in Synkronized, AFO, Dinamite and RDLS all them have songs that i like and songs that i don't (it doesnt happen in first 3 albums). for some reason, the quality of the songs (not the style or genre) have gone down, and i feel this particularly clear in this last album. Some of the songs are for me painful, others are bad and some others are just quite nice, none of them is really a "jamiroquai level" song for me. Some of the worst tracks would work much better to my taste with a different production, just with a little change in arrangements or sounds. I'm trying to explain WHY, but it's hard. It's not the strings, certainly not the bass, guitar or drums, neither percussion, and although i don't totally like all that synths (analog or digital) i think the bad thing is the choices they have made "clothing" the songs...
i'm trying but i don't know if i can give a reason...
someone said we seem to talk to jamiroquai as if they were amateurs...i think we all respect them and of course we know they are real proffesionals, top musicians, and we know they do everything to have the stuff done good (we all know how perfeccionist is Jay). So, that's why, I can understand how they can be happy with the result of, for example "superfresh", wich being a "standard modern disco" song, gives the quality, in all terms, of a song done by a bad amateur band...
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Dye
Correspondent & Expert
Joined: 16 Nov 2003
Posts: 5146
Location: Planet Home; Buenos Aires, Argentina
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| Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 14:03 |
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That's what probably happened to me with RDLS. I like the album, but some songs just weren't good enough. White Knuckle Ride, Blue Skies, All Good in the Hood, Hurtin'.
Instead, I like that in Hot Property, Dr Buzz, Summer Girl they have those instrumental jams in the middle that we usually get live but don't on the albums. Superfresh is more straightforward and to the point (I think it could probably be the next single).
It all comes down to context and personal taste, I'm afraid. |
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Vincenzo89
Joined: 01 Oct 2005
Posts: 360
Location: Naples, Italy
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| Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 15:04 |
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My brother sound the piano, he listen all days artist like George Duke , Hancock, Chick Corea he knwow a lot about music.
When i was litening to the last Album he says that is amazing how jamiroquai are able to do at the same time commercial/quality music.
He think that Jay is a genious because it's not easy to make stuff that everyone could enjoy |
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John Doggett
Joined: 22 Jan 2010
Posts: 545
Location: France
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| Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 15:49 |
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Hi everyone !
Fist of all I’d like to thank Jay Kay & all the boys and girls from Jamiroquai for the Automaton album.
It’s a real gift because all the things would definately end after Rock Dust Light Star (I quote Jay himself from the Automaton’s booklet : « A Huge thank you to all my friends who have stuck me over the years and encouraged me to continue when I wanted to stop the music»). Without them and without « our love, support and faith », Jamiroquai would never exist anymore today. And as Toby Smith said in 1997 :"The whole point of Jamiroquai is Jay".
So, it appears clearly that making a Jamiroquai album is like making a Star Wars film ! As matter of fact, every time, since A Funk Odyssey, it causes an outcry ! I want to talk about it rightly, clearly and fairly !
The first four albums are simply miraculous ! (Synkronized is even a double miracle : Symphonized would probably be a fantastic one and the final album Synkronized was written, produced and recorded…in only 6 months !). I quote a Toby Smith’s part interview in January 2010 for Miloco Studio :
« Jamiroquai worked because we had a lucky combination of timing, skill and individuality in a time dominated by Beatles cover bands and dance music. No one was, and actually still aren't doing what we did, and I think that helped. Also Jay was an exemplary performer and that meant that the live shows were great. »
About the dream of a second Return Of The Space Cowboy or a New Emergency On Planet Earth, it’s simply impossible because of : 1. Jay does not want to make the same album twice 2. The boys from the band are not the same. 3. Even IF you reunite the orignal cast and IF you ask them to make, again, a previous album, it will be Travelling Without Moving. The proof with this two interview's excerpts :
Toby (still for Miloco Studio in 2010) : I was swept up in the Jamiro-bubble for ten years, the first album was fantastic because there was no pressure and no external factors influencing our decisions, however (If I had to choose my favourite Jamiroquai album) I would have to say Travelling Without Moving. Radio 1 played 'Virtual Insanity' the other day, I hadn't heard it for a while, and do you know what? I thought it sounded fucking great. Also it still brings in royalties which is nice...
Meike : What's your favourite Jamiroquai studio album?
Derrick (in early 2010): Definitely Travelling Without Moving
For the electronic direction, it’s not the Zender’s departure which has caused that. Look what Toby Smith says, twenty years ago already, on May 1997, about Symphonized/Synkronized :
« For now, though, (Toby) Smith is looking forward to the final European leg of their world tour, and he's already formulating ideas for their next album, which he claims is going to feature more programming with a bit more of a club feel, still with the funky vibe, though, more sort of early-'80s P-funk ».
It’s today Automaton !
It’s also interesting to see how the experimentation is a great part of the Jamiroquai work. Listen carefully to the 1998 Jamiroquai Metro Mix (aka 1999 Chilington Mix) of Deeper Underground : it’s already the next Jamiroquai’s chapter.
A real artist takes risks. If you always do the same album (like Incognito which I love) you’re become invisible !
And I'd like to finish with this cleaver question (and answer !) asked very recently (April 2017) to Jay :
"Who were Jamiroquai’s initial audience? What were these people like? How has your audience evolved over time ?"
The initial audience for me were probably those who rejected the pop music of the early ’90s and who were into jazz and funk and wanted to see something a little bit different and wanted to see somebody do it live. They were kinda cool and young; we did all the student stuff across Europe where the audience were 150-200 people in the cooler clubs, particularly in France, the UK and Japan, and they were great times. Over time, the audiences evolved because at some point we hit the mainstream, with maybe not the second but certainly the third album, Traveling Without Moving. Suddenly there was press and, certainly in the UK, attention from the tabloid media, and that created a sea of change in how many people were exposed to me; some not necessarily for all the right reasons. Certainly not for the music but just for who I was, what was going on, what nightclubs I was stumbling out of, and so on. Yeah — as Tony Montana says, “That’s history!”
I'm very happy with Automaton. It's a nice album filled with fun, skills and good moods ! And once again thank you Jamiroquai !
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"People find it's hard to be strong, cos' they don't know where they're coming from"
Last edited by John Doggett on Mon Apr 10, 2017 09:31; edited 1 time in total |
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Dye
Correspondent & Expert
Joined: 16 Nov 2003
Posts: 5146
Location: Planet Home; Buenos Aires, Argentina
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| Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 16:02 |
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That was like an investigative article! Well done, great read. |
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Dani
Joined: 25 Jan 2017
Posts: 28
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| Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 16:25 |
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| John Doggett wrote: |
For the electronic direction, it’s not the Zender’s departure which has caused that. Look what Toby Smith says, twenty years ago already, on May 1997, about Symphonized/Synkronized :
« For now, though, (Toby) Smith is looking forward to the final European leg of their world tour, and he's already formulating ideas for their next album, which he claims is going to feature more programming with a bit more of a club feel, still with the funky vibe, though, more sort of early-'80s P-funk ».
[u]It’s today Automaton ! |
Really interesting! |
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John Doggett
Joined: 22 Jan 2010
Posts: 545
Location: France
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| Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 16:59 |
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Thank you guys !
I'm glad you're enjoying !
I'd only like to bring my modestic contribution to give a possible line of thought about the everlasting debate about the jamiroquai sound.
The answer is rather simple : it's multiple with a common denominator : black music influences and obviously Jay Kay !
Here a new quote from Toby Smith in 1997 :
"We're definitely not a part of the Britpop thing," assures Toby Smith, keyboard player and one half of the Jamiroquai writing partnership. "We do pretty much American black music. All the artists we listen to are black Americans: Roy Ayers, Herbie Hancock, Marvin Gaye, Donald Byrd, that sort of genre. I was late into this stuff, though -- I'm 26 now and I met Jay when I was 22. I hadn't really ever been into that music up until then. It was all house and then before that I was into rock -- David Bowie, Hendrix and stuff. So when I started writing with Jay I was right in at the deep end, but it was good in a way because I wasn't saturated in that type of music so it gave a different angle."
As the son of jazz singer Karen Kay, and having spent a good proportion of his childhood on the road with his mother, both in Britain and in America, Jay Kay was more attuned to the sort of music he aspired towards creating, [...] Jamiroquai have achieved success while bands like The Brand New Heavies and the Young Disciples have remained in the wings.
Here are my sources if you want to go further :
Toby Smith 1997 : http://www.jamirotalk.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7669
Toby Smith 2010 : https://milocostudios.com/studios/angelic-studio/interview-with-toby-smith/
Derrick McKenzie 2010 : http://www.jamirotalk.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7593
Jay Kay 2017 : http://www.highsnobiety.com/2017/03/31/jamiroquai-highsnobiety-interview/
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"People find it's hard to be strong, cos' they don't know where they're coming from" |
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MrMister
Joined: 30 Mar 2017
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 17:15 |
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Even though it's my favourite album, I really don't think they should be releasing TROTSC II, III, IV all these years. I actually prefer the style they went for starting with TWM: true funk. But despite exceptions that became more and more rare, the actual songwriting was never as good as Revolution 1993, Mr. Moon or High Times.
Synkronized was the first album I felt was half baked, without all those little details we so loved in the first three albums. Also, there was Supersonic, a song that not only was anti-Jamiroquai; it also got released as a single. Still, the good songs were indeed good: Canned Heat, Falling, Where Do We Go from Here?, Butterfly, you name it. And to me, that's what it comes down to: good songs. That's the essential difference between Cosmic Girl and Summer Girl.
Of course you can say it's just a matter of personal taste, and to some extent it is, indeed. But the band has changed in complexity, musicality, subtlety, good taste, attention to detail and so forth. I can think of reasons why they went in that direction, but I can't see that as “evolving”. |
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jamirokaki
Expert
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Posts: 3472
Location: basque country
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| Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 17:57 |
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i'm with Mrmister with this one.
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John Doggett
Joined: 22 Jan 2010
Posts: 545
Location: France
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| Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 18:28 |
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It's simply new directions in music. Not evolving but the willing to explore a new path. With the huge (fairly and fully deserved) success of TWM, how many bands instead would continued and proposed the same album every couple of years ? But Jamiroquai didn't.
Eight months only after the released of TWM, Toby (and Jay) wanted to have more programming in the next album. Remember the sample in the begining the We gettin' Down cover : "Party people, Party people Can y'all get funky?" It' was Afrika Bambaata's Planet Rock ! A song which has highly influenced Getinfunky (with a bit of George Clinton of course) !
The electronic jamiroquai revolution wasn't so unexpected after all : you can heard the begining of that in the Quasar Remix of Cosmic Girl and even...Morning Glory in a way with its synthetic bass and sound effects.
Every album marks a break with its predecessor, we know that. Synkronized was built in a big hurry but has some incredible songs : Canned Heat and Butterfly for instance are, for me, as good as the best TWM tracks...and are among the best Jamiroquai songs ! To quote Diego : "Canned Heat is a pure moment of joy !"
About music it's finally always a matter of taste ! You talk about the comparaison between Cosmic Girl and Summer Girl.
In 1996 I liked very much Cosmic Girl which is still a good moment of fun. But, today, I prefer Summer Girl which is an incredible tribute to the Leon Ware's album Inside is Love with this Jamiroquai-ish touch.
The last opus, Automaton, is a rich album with lovely details, musiqualities and fun. A cohesive and a solid one. With an artistic vision. What else ?
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"People find it's hard to be strong, cos' they don't know where they're coming from" |
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Javis
Joined: 31 Oct 2006
Posts: 1530
Location: Córdoba, Argentina
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| Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 19:34 |
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| MrMister wrote: |
Of course you can say it's just a matter of personal taste, and to some extent it is, indeed. But the band has changed in complexity, musicality, subtlety, good taste, attention to detail and so forth. I can think of reasons why they went in that direction, but I can't see that as “evolving”. |
Well, "evolving" in music is kind of a subjective matter. The way I see it, Jazz is the most virtuous genre of music, but that's just my opinion, some might say Classic music was the real deal, etc.
So when any artist makes his music more "jazzy", I consider the artist in question is "evolving".
But, Jamiroquai is a very particular case for these reasons:
* Jamiroquai started doing Jazz, if they want to "evolve", which direction should they take?
* I never liked Jamiroquai for their Jazz. I liked them because of their Funk, then because of their Disco music (canned heat and little L), and then their exploration in other genres with Dynamite (which I know is not particularly popular here, but I think it was a bold move that very few artist are able to do)
So, as long as Jamiroquai keeps exploring new directions, I consider they are evolving. |
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Curry
Joined: 19 Mar 2013
Posts: 184
Location: Arizona, USA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 23:49 |
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| MrMister wrote: |
| Of course you can say it's just a matter of personal taste, and to some extent it is, indeed. But the band has changed in complexity, musicality, subtlety, good taste, attention to detail and so forth. I can think of reasons why they went in that direction, but I can't see that as “evolving”. |
I fully agree with this notion.
The term "evolved" or "evolving" has been misused to simply state a change in direction, even though evolutions should typically be centered around the band 1-upping themselves. Evolution deals with keeping your core while spreading out to different aspects of yourself...for survival in this industry or not. But to outright change your core from social justice activist songwriting to dancehall boozer lyrics isn't evolving. It's just a switch.
I recall Jay's interview for the High Times best of album and he stated that record execs told him to knock it off with the commentary (and that he could probably go back to it at a later point). If anyone has to ask, I believe this is the point where Jamiroquai's initial essence switched to a more mainstream ideal.
Because they had to appease their reps, I do not believe the songs produced from TWM and on reflected an evolution. TWM was their most pronounced album due to the international acclaim, but since then it's a given no. This isn't to say they didn't do good albums since then. I'm simply putting it out there that no evolution took place....
because the term's an oxymoron for the music industry as a whole. |
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FunkyVibes
Joined: 28 Oct 2009
Posts: 364
Location: Eugene, Oregon
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| Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 01:08 |
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| Dye wrote: |
I get that some people don't like Automaton, and that's completely fine. I'm trying to understand why.
Personally, I don't see that much of a departure from what they've done before. Lots of synths, strings, backing singers and disco touches were all over Cosmic Girl 21 years ago too, and I wasn't around but I doubt there was this kind of disparity of opinions between that one and let's say Revolution 1993. So that's not a compelling argument against this album.
I don't think the music has changed all that much. People have. |
Why? Because nearly everything on this album has been done by the band before but better. It pales compared to the earlier stuff. By itself it's a decent album, but it's still very much stuck in the Dynamite, RDLS category.
Additionally, Jay's voice no longer retains the power and flexibility to reach those higher notes so the music becomes more restricted by that limitation. It's an OK album and if this is the last one then I'd say it's a good way to conclude the band's output. |
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